6 ms·

Give yourself permission to have work-life balance

96 points by matthewwarren 11y ago

joesmo 11y ago
I think one of the biggest reasons people don't give themselves a work-life balance is peer pressure and the desire to please others first. People pleasing, despite its name, is a problem with the person that's doing the manipulation. It's also a problem for the person that's doing it because they're doing something that's not in their own interest, simply to please others and fit in. A lot of this is justified by startups as necessary and most young people are just simply too stupid to know any different. When I see a 25 year old who isn't a founder working 12 hour days constantly despite getting no benefits and actually causing a ton of harm, I can only attribute that to ignorance and stupidity. Usually, he has been fooled by the people running the company into thinking that his work is necessary at the moment and that it will be repaid. It's neither necessary at the moment, nor will he ever be repaid a single penny. In fact, when he stops working so hard, he'll be fired. As Radiohead put it in the song "Just": "You do it to yourself, you do And that's what really hurts".
- altotrees 11y ago
  >I think one of the biggest reasons people don't give themselves a work-life balance is peer pressure and the desire to please others first. This is the root of the issue in my opinion. When I fail to achieve work/life balance, it is usually due to one of two things: 1. To please my direct co-workers, manager, CEO. 2. To please everyone else — that is, make enough to live the way I envision other people expect me to be living, and doing the things I imagine them expecting me to be doing. Living for even the imagined expectations of others can take a heavy toll. It took time to unlearn that way of thinking.
eganist 11y ago
Speaking as an engineering manager and not as a founder: It took me a little while to realize that sometimes, the value of life trumps the value of money. It also took me a little while to realize that having the ability to say "no" to unreasonable expectations is worth its weight in gold. There's also the argument that work/life balance promotes higher quality work, a position with which I'm inclined to agree especially where quantity of work output means relatively little compared to quality. As an example, some of the best work I've done came because I chose to dig deeper rather than having done so out of a feeling of obligation. These decisions to dig deeper into a problem came because my brain was still in one piece and both curious and intrinsically motivated to delve into a problem. In other words, I volunteered my own time to dig deeper into a problem while my brain was fresh, coming up with effective solutions of which I could be proud. There was a sense of accomplishment that came with it rather than a sense of dread, and for all other standard work expectations, I continued to deliver as usual during the day while enjoying my life afterwards. This proved particularly helpful given what I currently do (less engineering work than before). I've been able to pursue secure engineering challenges more as a hobby and a passion than as an obligation, keeping my skillset fresh by choice. The good companies realize all of these points. There's a common realization among all of them that giving employees positive incentives (yet still just the option) to go above and beyond while still rewarding everyone who produces as expected yields more productive, generally happier people. Granted, this doesn't work for everyone. The contractor mentality is notable for exploiting this approach for minimum labor per dollar spent, but elsewhere, I haven't seen proper work/life balance hinder productivity compared to what we see out of a lot of companies in the bay. As for founders... if you're a founder with buckets of equity, it's probably in your favor to make a mid-term work/life balance trade, but I can't speak to that. @joesmo's comment on culture and people-pleasing might speak better to that and to why most other firms expect harder working hours. Edit: see @AdamMaras' comment below regarding exactly the kind of little culture seeds smaller companies can use as they grow to instill balance. "life/work balance" is a subtle but valuable way to emphasize life first.
- AdamMaras 11y ago
  These are all good reasons why we call it life/work balance at Stack Overflow.
maxaf 11y ago
I've had only one job in which work/life balance was non-existent. "Crushin' it" was part of company culture, and I, as an early employee, was a poster boy for it. It never occurred to me that I could have (and should have!) taken a step back & allowed myself to live like an actual human being. My work and my family life suffered, while I continued to wonder why I wasn't doing as well as I could be. Turns out that the main barrier was me. After leaving the land of "crushin' it" I've gone on to be part of other companies where it became clear that I have the power to push back against unreasonable demands without harming my performance at work or my prospects at the company. All it took was a quick experiment: I went home at 5pm one day, then the next day, and before I knew it I was no longer logging into work after dinner. Weekends miraculously cleared up, too! Vacations became about having fun, and I no longer even remember what a corporate-issued LTE modem looks like. This lead to all sorts of other realizations, such as: I thought I was in firm control of many aspects of my life, whereas in fact I hadn't exercised as much control as I could have. I've gained lots of happiness points by running small experiments like the above.
master_yoda_1 11y ago
Work life balance is a propaganda spread by people in tech only. You should look how hard the doctors and nurses are working in emergency room and getting paid so much less. These all talks from tech people sound really idiotic. So just shut up and go back to work.
- kdamken 11y ago
  What a sad way to view life. Doctors and other medical staff are overworked, and that's not a good thing that everyone else should aspire to. Have fun working your way into a heart attack at 45 I guess.
- galaktor 11y ago
  not to disagree with what you're trying to say, but "it could be worse" isn't a good argument on it's own.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  If you want to make things more equal, maybe we should improve work for all instead of relentlessly making it worse until everyone is miserable.
- imgabe 11y ago
  1. Doctors are paid very well. Much better than most tech jobs. Starting salaries after all residences/fellowships are completed and board exams passed are $250k+. Doctors can also moonlight even while in residency (after passing board exams I think) for, from what I've heard, about $1k per 12 hour shift (~$83/hr). 2. Nurses are also pretty well paid and eligible for overtime in most cases. That said, there's a big push lately to limit the number of hours doctors are allowed to work in a row. It was common to pull 36 hour shifts in some cases (with naps/downtime but still in the hospital and on call), but now people are starting to realize that having sleep-deprived people administering medical treatment is not such a good idea.
  - abawany 11y ago
    Re. 2 I learnt to my great astonishment yesterday that that is not necessarily true: ER nurses in Austin are paid $25/hr since the town pretty much has two large conglomerates that manage all healthcare [1]. It really makes one wonder why healthcare is so expensive in this country. My only explanation for the motivation of doctors/nurses to overwork/burn-out is that compared to a typical tech job, their work saves human lives. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/4emntv/question_for_er_nurses_from_one_who_is_moving/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/4emntv/question_for...
manibatra 11y ago
Media extolling people who pour themselves into work does not help. Those are the people many of us ( at least I ) look up to. I am working on my second start up. On top of that I freelance for income. There is little time for "life". The problematic part ( or maybe not ) is that I am loving it. It has definitely affected my relationships, I have lost a few friends but I really enjoy work. Maybe it will have a negative effect as I grow older. Maybe I will burnout soon. Time will tell.
- griffordson 11y ago
  In my experience, the amount of control you have over the time you spend working is a critical factor. If you can easily adjust your work hours down, at any time, then it isn't as bad. So try to avoid making hard commitments that require lots of work and you'll probably have fewer issues.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - manibatra 11y ago
    Interesting you say that. I am able to set my own hours most of the time ( I work a lot but by choice). Maybe that is why I have avoided being burned out and work is still fun.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
Disruptive_Dave 11y ago
Took me until a few years ago (36yo right now) to really come to terms with this, and since then the seedling has grown tremendously. That martyr syndrome ran rampant in my early work years, and it implanted bad habits from the beginning. I still haven't been able to fully decouple myself from carrying work around as if it is my actual reason for being, but the unburdening has commenced. And anyone trying to figure it out, just spend some time thinking about the title of this thread. It's not so much about reconfiguring my schedule or "hacking" my time management (tho that helps), it's was the mindset changed that led to the "oh, shit" moment(s).
fastbeef 11y ago
Somewhere between job #2 and job #3 I discovered that the reward for work isn't O(n) as I've been taught my whole life - it's O(log n). This was a total game changer for me, because I relaxed, lowered my expectations, was happier, and - ultimately - did better work.
- pjungwir 11y ago
  This is a fun way to think about it. A more "economics" way is that you value your time more when you have less of it, so you might sell the 9th hour at a higher price than you'd sell the first. And that's why workers in many industries require overtime. As a freelancer, something I think about is this: I have 3 ways to raise my income: work more hours, bill more per hour, and hire people to work under me. Option 1 is pretty limited. Option 3 is attractive, but brings a lot of headaches, and if I have employees I have to sell enough projects to keep them all busy. The most appealing personally is to be the best I can at what I do, to justify a higher rate.
moron4hire 11y ago
I start and end every day with snuggles with my 3-month old.
henrik_w 11y ago
"Saying no is so powerful and it isn't something you can easily learn and just stick with - you have to remind yourself it's OK to to say no every day" I am almost finished reading "The Power of a Positive No" by William Ury [1], and it's very good. The main idea is that because you say yes to something (e.g. having a life), it's easier to say no to something else (e.g. extra work). Well worth the read! [1] http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive-No-Relationship-Still/dp/0553384260/ http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive-No-Relationship-Still/d...
dghughes 11y ago
The way I see it is so-called "work-life balance" assumes 50% work and 50% life i.e. the balance which I'd say is not desirable to most people. Working 12 hours and then 12 hours for your life which would include eight hours sleep leaving four hours for your life. Of a 24-hour day you (supposedly) sleep eight hours, another eight is your awake non-work life, eight hours is company work so work should be at most 33% of your day and 66% your life. You're the fulcrum move that balance!
tekromancr 11y ago
Serious question. What does work-life balance look like. I genuinely have a difficult time finding things to occupy my time when I don't work. I am not really even fully sure where to start...
- mimming 11y ago
  It looks like time spent doing things that my employer wouldn't pay me to do. Over the course of my life, it's changed. Sometimes it looks pretty similar to my day job, but to the benefit of a different organization, like when I mentored a FIRST robotics team. Recently it's looked very different. I balance work with sports so that I can keep my body working well enough to enjoy a longer career :)
- bufordsharkley 11y ago
  I volunteer at a community radio station, read books, watch films, work on things around the house, work on projects with friends, etc, etc.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  I mean, are you really saying you can't think of a single thing you'd like to do besides more work? Even if you just want to veg out on the couch and watch TV having some sort of downtime is important.
  - NikolaeVarius 11y ago
    Personally no. Any time I'm not working is time wasted.
    - burkaman 11y ago
      "Working" is a little different than "at work". Is there anything you want to do that you are not already employed to do, besides eating and sleeping?
    - emodendroket 11y ago
      Are you kidding, dude? There's more to life than just writing code. Don't you have a family, or friends?
arca_vorago 11y ago
The main issue is people have had it ingrained into them from parents and grandparents who knew what it was like to work at a company for 20-35 years and retire, and thats not at all how things work these days. At a base level, employment is a contract for services. They pay me X for me to do job Y. The real problem is that employers have almost all of the leverage and power in this forming of the contract, so they generally start off paying you less than the value you produce because thats how business works! What people need to learn to do is how to negotiate from a strong position and how to understand and edit contracts. Never, ever be afraid to say, "Im going to read this, make changes, and bring it back to you." Just because someone hands you a peice of paper and a pen and says sign this doesnt mean you should! Also, perks only go so far.
chris_hawk 11y ago
Oooooh. I'm pretty stoked that Scott quoted me!
NTripleOne 11y ago
You mean a life-work balance? Because life should always come first.

96 points by matthewwarren 11y ago

I think one of the biggest reasons people don't give themselves a work-life balance is peer pressure and the desire to please others first. People pleasing, despite its name, is a problem with the person that's doing the manipulation. It's also a problem for the person that's doing it because they're doing something that's not in their own interest, simply to please others and fit in. A lot of this is justified by startups as necessary and most young people are just simply too stupid to know any different. When I see a 25 year old who isn't a founder working 12 hour days constantly despite getting no benefits and actually causing a ton of harm, I can only attribute that to ignorance and stupidity. Usually, he has been fooled by the people running the company into thinking that his work is necessary at the moment and that it will be repaid. It's neither necessary at the moment, nor will he ever be repaid a single penny. In fact, when he stops working so hard, he'll be fired. As Radiohead put it in the song "Just": "You do it to yourself, you do And that's what really hurts".

altotrees 11y ago
>I think one of the biggest reasons people don't give themselves a work-life balance is peer pressure and the desire to please others first. This is the root of the issue in my opinion. When I fail to achieve work/life balance, it is usually due to one of two things: 1. To please my direct co-workers, manager, CEO. 2. To please everyone else — that is, make enough to live the way I envision other people expect me to be living, and doing the things I imagine them expecting me to be doing. Living for even the imagined expectations of others can take a heavy toll. It took time to unlearn that way of thinking.

eganist 11y ago

Speaking as an engineering manager and not as a founder: It took me a little while to realize that sometimes, the value of life trumps the value of money. It also took me a little while to realize that having the ability to say "no" to unreasonable expectations is worth its weight in gold. There's also the argument that work/life balance promotes higher quality work, a position with which I'm inclined to agree especially where quantity of work output means relatively little compared to quality. As an example, some of the best work I've done came because I chose to dig deeper rather than having done so out of a feeling of obligation. These decisions to dig deeper into a problem came because my brain was still in one piece and both curious and intrinsically motivated to delve into a problem. In other words, I volunteered my own time to dig deeper into a problem while my brain was fresh, coming up with effective solutions of which I could be proud. There was a sense of accomplishment that came with it rather than a sense of dread, and for all other standard work expectations, I continued to deliver as usual during the day while enjoying my life afterwards. This proved particularly helpful given what I currently do (less engineering work than before). I've been able to pursue secure engineering challenges more as a hobby and a passion than as an obligation, keeping my skillset fresh by choice. The good companies realize all of these points. There's a common realization among all of them that giving employees positive incentives (yet still just the option) to go above and beyond while still rewarding everyone who produces as expected yields more productive, generally happier people. Granted, this doesn't work for everyone. The contractor mentality is notable for exploiting this approach for minimum labor per dollar spent, but elsewhere, I haven't seen proper work/life balance hinder productivity compared to what we see out of a lot of companies in the bay. As for founders... if you're a founder with buckets of equity, it's probably in your favor to make a mid-term work/life balance trade, but I can't speak to that. @joesmo's comment on culture and people-pleasing might speak better to that and to why most other firms expect harder working hours. Edit: see @AdamMaras' comment below regarding exactly the kind of little culture seeds smaller companies can use as they grow to instill balance. "life/work balance" is a subtle but valuable way to emphasize life first.

AdamMaras 11y ago
These are all good reasons why we call it life/work balance at Stack Overflow.

maxaf 11y ago

I've had only one job in which work/life balance was non-existent. "Crushin' it" was part of company culture, and I, as an early employee, was a poster boy for it. It never occurred to me that I could have (and should have!) taken a step back & allowed myself to live like an actual human being. My work and my family life suffered, while I continued to wonder why I wasn't doing as well as I could be. Turns out that the main barrier was me. After leaving the land of "crushin' it" I've gone on to be part of other companies where it became clear that I have the power to push back against unreasonable demands without harming my performance at work or my prospects at the company. All it took was a quick experiment: I went home at 5pm one day, then the next day, and before I knew it I was no longer logging into work after dinner. Weekends miraculously cleared up, too! Vacations became about having fun, and I no longer even remember what a corporate-issued LTE modem looks like. This lead to all sorts of other realizations, such as: I thought I was in firm control of many aspects of my life, whereas in fact I hadn't exercised as much control as I could have. I've gained lots of happiness points by running small experiments like the above.

master_yoda_1 11y ago

Work life balance is a propaganda spread by people in tech only. You should look how hard the doctors and nurses are working in emergency room and getting paid so much less. These all talks from tech people sound really idiotic. So just shut up and go back to work.

kdamken 11y ago
What a sad way to view life. Doctors and other medical staff are overworked, and that's not a good thing that everyone else should aspire to. Have fun working your way into a heart attack at 45 I guess.
galaktor 11y ago
not to disagree with what you're trying to say, but "it could be worse" isn't a good argument on it's own.
emodendroket 11y ago
If you want to make things more equal, maybe we should improve work for all instead of relentlessly making it worse until everyone is miserable.
imgabe 11y ago
1. Doctors are paid very well. Much better than most tech jobs. Starting salaries after all residences/fellowships are completed and board exams passed are $250k+. Doctors can also moonlight even while in residency (after passing board exams I think) for, from what I've heard, about $1k per 12 hour shift (~$83/hr). 2. Nurses are also pretty well paid and eligible for overtime in most cases. That said, there's a big push lately to limit the number of hours doctors are allowed to work in a row. It was common to pull 36 hour shifts in some cases (with naps/downtime but still in the hospital and on call), but now people are starting to realize that having sleep-deprived people administering medical treatment is not such a good idea.
- abawany 11y ago
  Re. 2 I learnt to my great astonishment yesterday that that is not necessarily true: ER nurses in Austin are paid $25/hr since the town pretty much has two large conglomerates that manage all healthcare [1]. It really makes one wonder why healthcare is so expensive in this country. My only explanation for the motivation of doctors/nurses to overwork/burn-out is that compared to a typical tech job, their work saves human lives. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/4emntv/question_for_er_nurses_from_one_who_is_moving/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Austin/comments/4emntv/question_for...

manibatra 11y ago

Media extolling people who pour themselves into work does not help. Those are the people many of us ( at least I ) look up to. I am working on my second start up. On top of that I freelance for income. There is little time for "life". The problematic part ( or maybe not ) is that I am loving it. It has definitely affected my relationships, I have lost a few friends but I really enjoy work. Maybe it will have a negative effect as I grow older. Maybe I will burnout soon. Time will tell.

griffordson 11y ago
In my experience, the amount of control you have over the time you spend working is a critical factor. If you can easily adjust your work hours down, at any time, then it isn't as bad. So try to avoid making hard commitments that require lots of work and you'll probably have fewer issues.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- manibatra 11y ago
  Interesting you say that. I am able to set my own hours most of the time ( I work a lot but by choice). Maybe that is why I have avoided being burned out and work is still fun.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

Disruptive_Dave 11y ago

Took me until a few years ago (36yo right now) to really come to terms with this, and since then the seedling has grown tremendously. That martyr syndrome ran rampant in my early work years, and it implanted bad habits from the beginning. I still haven't been able to fully decouple myself from carrying work around as if it is my actual reason for being, but the unburdening has commenced. And anyone trying to figure it out, just spend some time thinking about the title of this thread. It's not so much about reconfiguring my schedule or "hacking" my time management (tho that helps), it's was the mindset changed that led to the "oh, shit" moment(s).

fastbeef 11y ago

Somewhere between job #2 and job #3 I discovered that the reward for work isn't O(n) as I've been taught my whole life - it's O(log n). This was a total game changer for me, because I relaxed, lowered my expectations, was happier, and - ultimately - did better work.

pjungwir 11y ago
This is a fun way to think about it. A more "economics" way is that you value your time more when you have less of it, so you might sell the 9th hour at a higher price than you'd sell the first. And that's why workers in many industries require overtime. As a freelancer, something I think about is this: I have 3 ways to raise my income: work more hours, bill more per hour, and hire people to work under me. Option 1 is pretty limited. Option 3 is attractive, but brings a lot of headaches, and if I have employees I have to sell enough projects to keep them all busy. The most appealing personally is to be the best I can at what I do, to justify a higher rate.

moron4hire 11y ago

I start and end every day with snuggles with my 3-month old.

henrik_w 11y ago

"Saying no is so powerful and it isn't something you can easily learn and just stick with - you have to remind yourself it's OK to to say no every day" I am almost finished reading "The Power of a Positive No" by William Ury [1], and it's very good. The main idea is that because you say yes to something (e.g. having a life), it's easier to say no to something else (e.g. extra work). Well worth the read! [1] http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive-No-Relationship-Still/dp/0553384260/ http://www.amazon.com/Power-Positive-No-Relationship-Still/d...

dghughes 11y ago

The way I see it is so-called "work-life balance" assumes 50% work and 50% life i.e. the balance which I'd say is not desirable to most people. Working 12 hours and then 12 hours for your life which would include eight hours sleep leaving four hours for your life. Of a 24-hour day you (supposedly) sleep eight hours, another eight is your awake non-work life, eight hours is company work so work should be at most 33% of your day and 66% your life. You're the fulcrum move that balance!

tekromancr 11y ago

Serious question. What does work-life balance look like. I genuinely have a difficult time finding things to occupy my time when I don't work. I am not really even fully sure where to start...

mimming 11y ago
It looks like time spent doing things that my employer wouldn't pay me to do. Over the course of my life, it's changed. Sometimes it looks pretty similar to my day job, but to the benefit of a different organization, like when I mentored a FIRST robotics team. Recently it's looked very different. I balance work with sports so that I can keep my body working well enough to enjoy a longer career :)
bufordsharkley 11y ago
I volunteer at a community radio station, read books, watch films, work on things around the house, work on projects with friends, etc, etc.
emodendroket 11y ago
I mean, are you really saying you can't think of a single thing you'd like to do besides more work? Even if you just want to veg out on the couch and watch TV having some sort of downtime is important.
- NikolaeVarius 11y ago
  Personally no. Any time I'm not working is time wasted.
  - burkaman 11y ago
    "Working" is a little different than "at work". Is there anything you want to do that you are not already employed to do, besides eating and sleeping?
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    Are you kidding, dude? There's more to life than just writing code. Don't you have a family, or friends?

arca_vorago 11y ago

The main issue is people have had it ingrained into them from parents and grandparents who knew what it was like to work at a company for 20-35 years and retire, and thats not at all how things work these days. At a base level, employment is a contract for services. They pay me X for me to do job Y. The real problem is that employers have almost all of the leverage and power in this forming of the contract, so they generally start off paying you less than the value you produce because thats how business works! What people need to learn to do is how to negotiate from a strong position and how to understand and edit contracts. Never, ever be afraid to say, "Im going to read this, make changes, and bring it back to you." Just because someone hands you a peice of paper and a pen and says sign this doesnt mean you should! Also, perks only go so far.

chris_hawk 11y ago

Oooooh. I'm pretty stoked that Scott quoted me!

NTripleOne 11y ago

You mean a life-work balance? Because life should always come first.