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> We can argue all day about how the law doesn't prevent criminals from using technologies (it doesn't, which makes the law idiotic, from a logic perspective),

> We can argue all day about how the law doesn't prevent criminals from using technologies (it doesn't, which makes the law idiotic, from a logic perspective), but that's not the important part. We should tell other people that the law does not stop criminals from hiding their communications. Some people don't understand the nature of software or open source, and it can be explained. > The important part is that this group of folks we're calling Government is trying to prevent us from being allowed to have secrets and whisper to each other. Personally I think the people who support this kind of law are the same ones who believe they have nothing to hide from the government. So the privacy argument is lost on them. When you point out the law is harmful to their security and impossible to enforce, then there's a chance you'll be able to convince them. This is a great opportunity for technologists to chat up their friends and family, start campaigns, or perhaps even run for office. This issue is an easy win if you can keep a cool head while explaining the facts.

mangeletti 11y ago
> privacy argument is lost on them The point I'm making is that I don't think it's lost at all. I think these people didn't all get to be in positions of power by being bumbling idiots. They know that they can convince some portion of the masses that they are in danger and need help. And that's all it takes to get a leg up on everyone; a portion of the masses.
- studentrob 11y ago
  Okay, agree to disagree. I don't think our elected officials are bumbling idiots. But they aren't informed about everything either. It's impossible to be an expert across all fields. As technologists, we think this issue is so straightforward that you must either be evil or a complete idiot if you support this law. We'd do well to take a step back and observe our thought process. We often think things about computers are simple which others don't understand. That is why we get paid.
  - mangeletti 11y ago
    We love to think these people are much like our clients who don't know the difference between a popup window and a Python program. These people are informed by groups like the DIA, CIA, NSA, and every other TLA, with a wealth of information on these issues.
    - studentrob 11y ago
      Lindsey Graham changed his mind [1]. It isn't a massive conspiracy. I wouldn't say Feinstein is well-informed. Watch some of the hearings where she interacts with other members. It's awkward and clear they don't enjoy working with her. [1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=6m53s https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=6m53s
      - mangeletti 11y ago
        Why does wanting more power have to be a "massive conspiracy"? It seems like pretty common sense wisdom that being in power usually leads to wanting more power, and also that power often corrupts. One does not need to be a "conspiracy theorist" to come to this conclusion. The real conspiracy is the apparently concerted effort to call anyone that believes the government is busy grabbing power a "conspiracy theorists".
        studentrob 11y ago
        > Why does wanting more power have to be a "massive conspiracy"? It doesn't. You were saying some government officials are saying one thing to the public while knowing another to be true: >> We love to think these people are much like our clients who don't know the difference between a popup window and a Python program. These people are informed by groups like the DIA, CIA, NSA, and every other TLA, with a wealth of information on these issues. That implies some sort of secret plot that would harm the integrity of our government and country. > It seems like pretty common sense wisdom that being in power usually leads to wanting more power, and also that power often corrupts. One does not need to be a "conspiracy theorist" to come to this conclusion. I agree entirely. > The real conspiracy is the apparently concerted effort to call anyone that believes the government is busy grabbing power a "conspiracy theorists". Nobody said this. Claiming that there is a concerted effort by officials to lie, however, is accusing them of conspiracy. This vibe of distrust hurts the ability of technologists to come together and be as effective as they're capable of being within government. Ultimately, society and its elected government is formed around trust. You have to believe that most of the people who enter into elected positions did so with the aim of improving our society before you can be effective within it yourself.
niels_olson 11y ago
> the law does not stop criminals from hiding their communications. Better: this law would effectively grant criminals infinitely more protection than law-abiding citizens.

mangeletti 11y ago

> privacy argument is lost on them The point I'm making is that I don't think it's lost at all. I think these people didn't all get to be in positions of power by being bumbling idiots. They know that they can convince some portion of the masses that they are in danger and need help. And that's all it takes to get a leg up on everyone; a portion of the masses.

studentrob 11y ago
Okay, agree to disagree. I don't think our elected officials are bumbling idiots. But they aren't informed about everything either. It's impossible to be an expert across all fields. As technologists, we think this issue is so straightforward that you must either be evil or a complete idiot if you support this law. We'd do well to take a step back and observe our thought process. We often think things about computers are simple which others don't understand. That is why we get paid.
- mangeletti 11y ago
  We love to think these people are much like our clients who don't know the difference between a popup window and a Python program. These people are informed by groups like the DIA, CIA, NSA, and every other TLA, with a wealth of information on these issues.
  - studentrob 11y ago
    Lindsey Graham changed his mind [1]. It isn't a massive conspiracy. I wouldn't say Feinstein is well-informed. Watch some of the hearings where she interacts with other members. It's awkward and clear they don't enjoy working with her. [1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=6m53s https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=6m53s
    - mangeletti 11y ago
      Why does wanting more power have to be a "massive conspiracy"? It seems like pretty common sense wisdom that being in power usually leads to wanting more power, and also that power often corrupts. One does not need to be a "conspiracy theorist" to come to this conclusion. The real conspiracy is the apparently concerted effort to call anyone that believes the government is busy grabbing power a "conspiracy theorists".
      - studentrob 11y ago
        > Why does wanting more power have to be a "massive conspiracy"? It doesn't. You were saying some government officials are saying one thing to the public while knowing another to be true: >> We love to think these people are much like our clients who don't know the difference between a popup window and a Python program. These people are informed by groups like the DIA, CIA, NSA, and every other TLA, with a wealth of information on these issues. That implies some sort of secret plot that would harm the integrity of our government and country. > It seems like pretty common sense wisdom that being in power usually leads to wanting more power, and also that power often corrupts. One does not need to be a "conspiracy theorist" to come to this conclusion. I agree entirely. > The real conspiracy is the apparently concerted effort to call anyone that believes the government is busy grabbing power a "conspiracy theorists". Nobody said this. Claiming that there is a concerted effort by officials to lie, however, is accusing them of conspiracy. This vibe of distrust hurts the ability of technologists to come together and be as effective as they're capable of being within government. Ultimately, society and its elected government is formed around trust. You have to believe that most of the people who enter into elected positions did so with the aim of improving our society before you can be effective within it yourself.

niels_olson 11y ago

> the law does not stop criminals from hiding their communications. Better: this law would effectively grant criminals infinitely more protection than law-abiding citizens.