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Such a BAD use of tax payer money. So now we have to pay for 2 years of jail time (Probably 1 year for good behavior) for giving a key (That was actually not pr

by baldfat 11y ago

Such a BAD use of tax payer money. So now we have to pay for 2 years of jail time (Probably 1 year for good behavior) for giving a key (That was actually not proven but was believed by the juror. The crime was the defacing of ONE page. This key also should have been revoked after he left the company. The recommendation of 7 years is just crazy and even the lowered 5 years is just nuts. If you just look at the cost to the newspaper it was at one point almost a million dollars when the fix for the page was one editor reverting the page. > In order to be convicted of felony under the particular provisions of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act which prosecutors used to charge Keys, the conduct must exceed a threshold of $5,000. That someone is responsible for paying a company to sure up their security is an issue. Or the inflation of cost to so Federal Prosecutors can get another win under their belt. That over reach is pretty high in this case.

ikeboy 11y ago
>At trial, prosecutors presented evidence of loss ranging between $10,206 and $13,147 >In an unexpected twist, while going over the defense’s objections to the PSR, Judge Kimberly Mueller limited the amount of loss (for purposes of sentencing) to whatever had been presented at trial, thus drastically reducing the amount of prison time recommended by the sentencing guidelines. In the end, by the judge’s own determination, the appropriate range for sentencing was between 37 and 46 months. So the actual sentence wasn't based on inflated numbers, and was lower than recommended based on actual numbers. (Or are you saying the "evidence" of loss presented at trial was fake?)
- baldfat 11y ago
  I am saying that they INFLATED the loss to go over the $5,000 thresh hold.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    As someone who works in this field and has been a party to breach investigations, it is really hard for me to imagine a breach in which the website of the Los Angeles Times is defaced costing less than $5000. I'm actually surprised --- as, apparently, were the prosecutors --- that the established losses were capped at ~$15,000. If you're operating a company with real customers and real cash flow at any kind of real scale, and you suffer a serious breach, figure $50,000-$60,000 is table stakes for getting that breach resolved. The intuition you need, to price these things out, is that once an attacker obtains unexpected unauthorized access to a system, the very next thing they do (and, in this case, the very next thing they tried to do --- much to Keys chagrin) is extend and persist access. Which means that if you're resolving a breach, you have to re-assess every system that the attackers got unexpected access to and verify that they didn't (a) implant something that will restore access in the future or (b) uncover some latent vulnerability that would allow them to do that. Nobody reliably assesses internal systems (those systems you get unexpected access to once you successfully obtain unauthorized access). Nobody. An attacker gets behind the login prompt on a CMS you've deployed? You probably need to re-assess the whole CMS, because a big chunk of your security for that CMS probably relied on the idea that attackers don't know and can't reach all the URL endpoints behind the login prompt. The attacker gets code execution somehow? Now they're on your internal network, and the same goes for every system on the internal network. It adds up fast. And your insurance company will (a) demand that you pay it, and (b) shortlist your DFIR vendors for you. Not fun times.
    - jessaustin 11y ago
      It is surprising to mere mortals that reverting a web page to a previous version, as GP described, costs that much. I can see an argument to include costs of investigation, and a much more tenuous argument to include costs to fix a vulnerability, but frankly the arguments not to include those costs seem more compelling. After all the defendant in this case didn't design and implement the relatively weak security. That was a business decision by managers and executives. [EDIT:] I see you've added some material that explains why investigations cost more. That seems reasonable, but in many cases attackers are not within the reach of prosecution. If we allow firms to blame the "hacker" for needing to investigate how bad their security is, ISTM we're letting them shift the blame to parties who can't actually fix their problems.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Can you be more precise about "relatively weak security"? The accused in this case exfiltrated credentials to the system that was compromised. Most companies would fall to that attack. Meanwhile: they clearly can't just revert the web page. Keys gave a hacker group a login for a web application. How, exactly, does Trib Corp know how much damage the hacker group did to the server? There needs to be an investigation, and the norm is that the investigation should be done by a third party. Meanwhile, there's a principle in the law that you take the victim as they come. In US tort law, it's called "the eggshell skull rule". It means if you hit someone over the head with a book or something and unexpectedly fracture their skull because it turns out to have been as thin as an eggshell, you are still responsible for the damage you caused.
        jessaustin 11y ago
        It's my understanding that credentials were used to access a system from "outside" some time after the employment of the user associated with those credentials ceased. That is weak, relative to other firms that take the steps necessary to retire the credentials of former employees. I've worked at such firms; I know they exist. You probably have a better sense of the "average" state, however. It isn't at all clear to me that the eggshell rule is relevant to this situation. This was not an act of violence. Packets were exchanged among computers, which resulted in other packets being exchanged among computers. The "legal reasoning by tortured analogy" one sees so often on HN has really crippled our collective intelligence.
tptacek 11y ago
In this case, the problem wasn't so much that Trib Corp had poor security (they probably do though), but rather that an insider exfiltrated credentials to one of their servers to an IRC channel. There are a few companies in our industry where that attack wouldn't be devastating, because of very carefully designed security programs. But there are not many of those companies. Most companies you've heard of are just as vulnerable as Trib Corp was.
- matt_wulfeck 11y ago
  But charging them with hacking? And putting them in prison for 2 years?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    There's no such charge as "hacking".
    - matt_wulfeck 11y ago
      Of course. We're able to make the distinction of being hacked versus someone crawling through an open window. If only jurors could be expected to do the same.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        What distinction is it that you're trying to make? Crawling into a building through an open window is no less of a crime than picking the locks. In fact: it's exactly the same crime.
        possibility 11y ago
        Picking the locks is breaking and entering, going through an open window is illegal trespass, assuming you don't have to move any parts of the window. At least where I live. It depends on whether or not you have to use even the slightest amount of force to gain access. It also depends on your intent to commit a crime inside. If I'm looking for you because I've found your toddler wandering around outside and I open an unlocked door to call out your name, it isn't a crime. I'm not sure what happens if I pick a locked door in that situation, getting pretty contrived now. But let's say I heard your kid crying inside that you'd abandoned, it wouldn't be a crime to pick the lock and rescue him/her.
cylinder 11y ago
I'm just fed up with this country.

by baldfat 11y ago

ikeboy 11y ago

>At trial, prosecutors presented evidence of loss ranging between $10,206 and $13,147 >In an unexpected twist, while going over the defense’s objections to the PSR, Judge Kimberly Mueller limited the amount of loss (for purposes of sentencing) to whatever had been presented at trial, thus drastically reducing the amount of prison time recommended by the sentencing guidelines. In the end, by the judge’s own determination, the appropriate range for sentencing was between 37 and 46 months. So the actual sentence wasn't based on inflated numbers, and was lower than recommended based on actual numbers. (Or are you saying the "evidence" of loss presented at trial was fake?)

baldfat 11y ago
I am saying that they INFLATED the loss to go over the $5,000 thresh hold.
- tptacek 11y ago
  As someone who works in this field and has been a party to breach investigations, it is really hard for me to imagine a breach in which the website of the Los Angeles Times is defaced costing less than $5000. I'm actually surprised --- as, apparently, were the prosecutors --- that the established losses were capped at ~$15,000. If you're operating a company with real customers and real cash flow at any kind of real scale, and you suffer a serious breach, figure $50,000-$60,000 is table stakes for getting that breach resolved. The intuition you need, to price these things out, is that once an attacker obtains unexpected unauthorized access to a system, the very next thing they do (and, in this case, the very next thing they tried to do --- much to Keys chagrin) is extend and persist access. Which means that if you're resolving a breach, you have to re-assess every system that the attackers got unexpected access to and verify that they didn't (a) implant something that will restore access in the future or (b) uncover some latent vulnerability that would allow them to do that. Nobody reliably assesses internal systems (those systems you get unexpected access to once you successfully obtain unauthorized access). Nobody. An attacker gets behind the login prompt on a CMS you've deployed? You probably need to re-assess the whole CMS, because a big chunk of your security for that CMS probably relied on the idea that attackers don't know and can't reach all the URL endpoints behind the login prompt. The attacker gets code execution somehow? Now they're on your internal network, and the same goes for every system on the internal network. It adds up fast. And your insurance company will (a) demand that you pay it, and (b) shortlist your DFIR vendors for you. Not fun times.
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    It is surprising to mere mortals that reverting a web page to a previous version, as GP described, costs that much. I can see an argument to include costs of investigation, and a much more tenuous argument to include costs to fix a vulnerability, but frankly the arguments not to include those costs seem more compelling. After all the defendant in this case didn't design and implement the relatively weak security. That was a business decision by managers and executives. [EDIT:] I see you've added some material that explains why investigations cost more. That seems reasonable, but in many cases attackers are not within the reach of prosecution. If we allow firms to blame the "hacker" for needing to investigate how bad their security is, ISTM we're letting them shift the blame to parties who can't actually fix their problems.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Can you be more precise about "relatively weak security"? The accused in this case exfiltrated credentials to the system that was compromised. Most companies would fall to that attack. Meanwhile: they clearly can't just revert the web page. Keys gave a hacker group a login for a web application. How, exactly, does Trib Corp know how much damage the hacker group did to the server? There needs to be an investigation, and the norm is that the investigation should be done by a third party. Meanwhile, there's a principle in the law that you take the victim as they come. In US tort law, it's called "the eggshell skull rule". It means if you hit someone over the head with a book or something and unexpectedly fracture their skull because it turns out to have been as thin as an eggshell, you are still responsible for the damage you caused.
      - jessaustin 11y ago
        It's my understanding that credentials were used to access a system from "outside" some time after the employment of the user associated with those credentials ceased. That is weak, relative to other firms that take the steps necessary to retire the credentials of former employees. I've worked at such firms; I know they exist. You probably have a better sense of the "average" state, however. It isn't at all clear to me that the eggshell rule is relevant to this situation. This was not an act of violence. Packets were exchanged among computers, which resulted in other packets being exchanged among computers. The "legal reasoning by tortured analogy" one sees so often on HN has really crippled our collective intelligence.

tptacek 11y ago

In this case, the problem wasn't so much that Trib Corp had poor security (they probably do though), but rather that an insider exfiltrated credentials to one of their servers to an IRC channel. There are a few companies in our industry where that attack wouldn't be devastating, because of very carefully designed security programs. But there are not many of those companies. Most companies you've heard of are just as vulnerable as Trib Corp was.

matt_wulfeck 11y ago
But charging them with hacking? And putting them in prison for 2 years?
- tptacek 11y ago
  There's no such charge as "hacking".
  - matt_wulfeck 11y ago
    Of course. We're able to make the distinction of being hacked versus someone crawling through an open window. If only jurors could be expected to do the same.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      What distinction is it that you're trying to make? Crawling into a building through an open window is no less of a crime than picking the locks. In fact: it's exactly the same crime.
      - possibility 11y ago
        Picking the locks is breaking and entering, going through an open window is illegal trespass, assuming you don't have to move any parts of the window. At least where I live. It depends on whether or not you have to use even the slightest amount of force to gain access. It also depends on your intent to commit a crime inside. If I'm looking for you because I've found your toddler wandering around outside and I open an unlocked door to call out your name, it isn't a crime. I'm not sure what happens if I pick a locked door in that situation, getting pretty contrived now. But let's say I heard your kid crying inside that you'd abandoned, it wouldn't be a crime to pick the lock and rescue him/her.

cylinder 11y ago

I'm just fed up with this country.