4 ms·

Should we stay or should we go? No one seems to have a clear idea. But the UK is full of middle aged and the older generation who are scared shitless of change.

Should we stay or should we go? No one seems to have a clear idea. But the UK is full of middle aged and the older generation who are scared shitless of change. The younger generation (18 - 35) aren't in a position where the EU membership effects them in any tangible way. So we'll end up staying for the wrong reason. Fear. Where I live we get a metric shit tonne of EU funding, but I assume that if we left, the funding would just come from the government. Or we'd get none. Who knows? Who knows if the EU funding will dry up if we stay? We are so powerless it is unreal.

gambiting 11y ago
I get the exact opposite impression. The older generation doesn't give a crap about EU, it's not affecting them or their jobs in any way. They are the ones influenced most by the scaremongering of the media. It's the younger people who know that they will lose friends and jobs if Britain leaves, they are connected in the world and understand that implications for the people around them.
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  Maybe it's different in cities? I can't talk for those people, but in the smaller towns and villages no one really cares much about our government, let alone the EU. Hackernews audience is a different set of people to those Sun and Daily Mail readers.
bshimmin 11y ago
From speaking to people both 18-35 and in older age brackets, I've actually found it's the opposite - the younger generation is relatively impassioned about staying (or mostly indifferent but can't really see why we would leave), and older generations are much more on the fence. In fact, I don't know anyone under 35 who is in favour of Brexit. The older generations, however, start talking about their distrust of Europe, of Germany in particular, and seem to have some vestigial jingoistic pride and feel that Britain is still, or at least can be again, a great nation which can manage perfectly well by itself, thank you very much. (Obviously I've not canvassed everyone in Britain - just about ten or fifteen people I know reasonably well.)
- s_kilk 11y ago
  I've observed the same, it's mostly the late-middle-aged xenophobes who are in favour of leaving.
- ed_blackburn 11y ago
  This is an exact mirror of my experience. I know one person under 35 wishes to leave. Anyone I speak to over 50 is desperate to leave because they perceive the shared sovereignty as redline that should never be crossed irrespective of the consequences. Nuances between EU, EEC, Council of Europe, European Court of Human Rights and how leaving the EU does not mean extraditing ourselves from the others, thus stymieing the sovereignty issue so that it is mute is completely lost. We may leave the EU and still be subordinate to the other bodies (including most EU rules to maintain trade compatibility) making the entire exercise a dangerous experiment.
  - gambiting 11y ago
    One of the things I hate about the "leave" campaign is how it keeps repeating that European Court of Human Rights is a problem for the UK and how somehow leaving EU is going to help. Guess what, leaving EU has no effect on the membership in the European Court of Human Rights, all countries which are part of the Council of Europe, which UK is the member of, will remain in it regardless of their EU membership.
    - devnull791101 11y ago
      Our membership of the ECHR is a condition of being part of the EU. Without the latter the former becomes optional and we can apply or overrule their findings as necessary. Ultimately the British courts should have final ruling in Britain not the ECHR.
      - gambiting 11y ago
        "Ultimately the British courts should have final ruling in Britain not the ECHR." I disagree. ECHR should have the authority to rule against human rights violations in member countries, this extra level of protection is absolutely necessary.
viraptor 11y ago
> The younger generation (18 - 35) aren't in a position where the EU membership effects them in any tangible way You mean the age group which actually travels, studies abroad, looks for new jobs which right now they can choose from all over the EU, has more international contacts than previous generations, etc. ? I'm sure they're more affected in very practical ways than older generations. I'm affected in at least 3 ways, and I'm not even in Europe anymore.
- gadders 11y ago
  Or the group that doesn't remember life before the EU.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    That's a good point. I wonder if it matters though. I mean, 1) depending on how you count it, it could be either Schengen ('85), late '90s, or early '00s; 2) world was completely different before the EU - Europe was still dealing with WWII results / USSR issues - whatever happens, UK is not going to what was the pre-EU reality.
- devnull791101 11y ago
  its also the generation with the lowest cost of travel and highest disposable income. their ability to travel won't be affected by leaving the eu.
  - viraptor 11y ago
    Is it already certain that all benefits of Schengen remain? (likely) Visa-less work in the rest of EU? Visa-less study? Are travel costs going to remain the same? Will the UK have to renegotiate tourist visits with countries which had deals with EU, rather than separate countries? These are factors that could change as far as I know.
    - devnull791101 11y ago
      i would be surprised if we didnt get visa-less travel to shengen and visa-versa. visa requirements for study are generally pretty easy (can you afford it) and for work are a good thing. most eu countries already require some form of work permit (for tax purposes), they are easy to obtain and amount to the same thing as a visa. travel costs are based on market forces and government policy, we could make travel even cheaper if we left by reducing taxes if we chose to. the costs of operation are otherwise the same
vixen99 11y ago
"[Older] Scared shitless of change"? Evidence? Judging by the Observer's online poll - April 2016, results show that those aged 55 years old and over were more in favour of a Brexit with 54%, compared to 30% that wanted to remain part of the EU.
raverbashing 11y ago
It seems your post symbolizes everything that's wrong with most people, they don't know crap about EU 101 and pretty much don't want to > The younger generation (18 - 35) aren't in a position where the EU membership effects them in any tangible way I'll take that as a joke or as proof that a lot of people have no idea on what they're talking about.
- monk_e_boy 11y ago
  Hackernews has a different audience to 99% of real people. Talk to a plumber or an electrician under 35 and ask them about the EU. No clue.
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Yeah, what they probably know is that some Polish electrician is "taking his job" (probably by doing it better) because that's what they said on the Daily Mail or something

gambiting 11y ago

I get the exact opposite impression. The older generation doesn't give a crap about EU, it's not affecting them or their jobs in any way. They are the ones influenced most by the scaremongering of the media. It's the younger people who know that they will lose friends and jobs if Britain leaves, they are connected in the world and understand that implications for the people around them.

monk_e_boy 11y ago
Maybe it's different in cities? I can't talk for those people, but in the smaller towns and villages no one really cares much about our government, let alone the EU. Hackernews audience is a different set of people to those Sun and Daily Mail readers.

bshimmin 11y ago

From speaking to people both 18-35 and in older age brackets, I've actually found it's the opposite - the younger generation is relatively impassioned about staying (or mostly indifferent but can't really see why we would leave), and older generations are much more on the fence. In fact, I don't know anyone under 35 who is in favour of Brexit. The older generations, however, start talking about their distrust of Europe, of Germany in particular, and seem to have some vestigial jingoistic pride and feel that Britain is still, or at least can be again, a great nation which can manage perfectly well by itself, thank you very much. (Obviously I've not canvassed everyone in Britain - just about ten or fifteen people I know reasonably well.)

s_kilk 11y ago
I've observed the same, it's mostly the late-middle-aged xenophobes who are in favour of leaving.
ed_blackburn 11y ago
This is an exact mirror of my experience. I know one person under 35 wishes to leave. Anyone I speak to over 50 is desperate to leave because they perceive the shared sovereignty as redline that should never be crossed irrespective of the consequences. Nuances between EU, EEC, Council of Europe, European Court of Human Rights and how leaving the EU does not mean extraditing ourselves from the others, thus stymieing the sovereignty issue so that it is mute is completely lost. We may leave the EU and still be subordinate to the other bodies (including most EU rules to maintain trade compatibility) making the entire exercise a dangerous experiment.
- gambiting 11y ago
  One of the things I hate about the "leave" campaign is how it keeps repeating that European Court of Human Rights is a problem for the UK and how somehow leaving EU is going to help. Guess what, leaving EU has no effect on the membership in the European Court of Human Rights, all countries which are part of the Council of Europe, which UK is the member of, will remain in it regardless of their EU membership.
  - devnull791101 11y ago
    Our membership of the ECHR is a condition of being part of the EU. Without the latter the former becomes optional and we can apply or overrule their findings as necessary. Ultimately the British courts should have final ruling in Britain not the ECHR.
    - gambiting 11y ago
      "Ultimately the British courts should have final ruling in Britain not the ECHR." I disagree. ECHR should have the authority to rule against human rights violations in member countries, this extra level of protection is absolutely necessary.

viraptor 11y ago

> The younger generation (18 - 35) aren't in a position where the EU membership effects them in any tangible way You mean the age group which actually travels, studies abroad, looks for new jobs which right now they can choose from all over the EU, has more international contacts than previous generations, etc. ? I'm sure they're more affected in very practical ways than older generations. I'm affected in at least 3 ways, and I'm not even in Europe anymore.

gadders 11y ago
Or the group that doesn't remember life before the EU.
- viraptor 11y ago
  That's a good point. I wonder if it matters though. I mean, 1) depending on how you count it, it could be either Schengen ('85), late '90s, or early '00s; 2) world was completely different before the EU - Europe was still dealing with WWII results / USSR issues - whatever happens, UK is not going to what was the pre-EU reality.
devnull791101 11y ago
its also the generation with the lowest cost of travel and highest disposable income. their ability to travel won't be affected by leaving the eu.
- viraptor 11y ago
  Is it already certain that all benefits of Schengen remain? (likely) Visa-less work in the rest of EU? Visa-less study? Are travel costs going to remain the same? Will the UK have to renegotiate tourist visits with countries which had deals with EU, rather than separate countries? These are factors that could change as far as I know.
  - devnull791101 11y ago
    i would be surprised if we didnt get visa-less travel to shengen and visa-versa. visa requirements for study are generally pretty easy (can you afford it) and for work are a good thing. most eu countries already require some form of work permit (for tax purposes), they are easy to obtain and amount to the same thing as a visa. travel costs are based on market forces and government policy, we could make travel even cheaper if we left by reducing taxes if we chose to. the costs of operation are otherwise the same

vixen99 11y ago

"[Older] Scared shitless of change"? Evidence? Judging by the Observer's online poll - April 2016, results show that those aged 55 years old and over were more in favour of a Brexit with 54%, compared to 30% that wanted to remain part of the EU.

raverbashing 11y ago

It seems your post symbolizes everything that's wrong with most people, they don't know crap about EU 101 and pretty much don't want to > The younger generation (18 - 35) aren't in a position where the EU membership effects them in any tangible way I'll take that as a joke or as proof that a lot of people have no idea on what they're talking about.

monk_e_boy 11y ago
Hackernews has a different audience to 99% of real people. Talk to a plumber or an electrician under 35 and ask them about the EU. No clue.
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Yeah, what they probably know is that some Polish electrician is "taking his job" (probably by doing it better) because that's what they said on the Daily Mail or something