5 ms·

To be fair, you can turn that round; my reading of what Brian said was that he thought this bill was open to abuse, which could make your reading seem disingenu

by adw 17y ago

To be fair, you can turn that round; my reading of what Brian said was that he thought this bill was open to abuse, which could make your reading seem disingenuous. Neither interpretation's fair to either of you, though. (I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.)

blackguardx 17y ago
I currently live in the US. Can I just move to Europe and get a job? Or, do I have to do some sort of paperwork first (like get a visa)?
- henrikschroder 17y ago
  If you are not a EU citizen you need a residence permit and a work permit. I don't know how different the rules are between the EU countries, but it's roughly the same everwhere. A work permit is typically tied to an employer, and a residence permit is typically tied to a work permit. Here's the different kinds for Sweden: http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html
  - eagleal 17y ago
    Once you have a Visa/Residence permit (work) in one country you can freely move between all the EU countries. (I live in Italy with residence permit, so I know)
    - wheels 17y ago
      Usually you need a permanent residence permit (Greencard equivalent), and then it has to be a fairly recent one as the laws were only harmonized in the last 5 years. And even then, the permit for most of the EU isn't valid for the UK or Ireland. In Germany the first permit that you get (an H1B equivalent) is tied to one job, and hence, tied to the place where you have that job. After 5 years of working full-time (and a long string of other checklist items), you're eligible to begin the application process for permanent residence (which I now have).
      - eagleal 17y ago
        My fault, I don't know why I confused the permit to stay (expires every 2 years) with permanent residence. Well, in Italy you just need a home and revenue to obtain a permit to stay (work related). The permanent residence or permit to stay doesn't lock you to the first job it was issued for, though. However you can still (with the permit to stay) move between UE countries, just get back to Italy and declare revenue (as entrepreneur).
        davidw 17y ago
        Whereabouts are you in Italy? You don't have any information in your profile. I'm in Padova.
        eagleal 17y ago
        Sorry for replying late, I just saw it. I'm in Perugia (Umbria, Central Italy).
  - ohashi 17y ago
    Easiest to get a student visa here in Sweden (I know, I am on one!). They are also a lot easier to deal with once you are in the country and trying to extend... just show them you have money/income and won't be leaching off their system and they are happy.
  - ig1 17y ago
    In the UK almost all professional level visas (tier 1, old HSMP) are person based rather than employer based, so you're free to change jobs
smallblacksun 17y ago
I'm pretty sure that visas are required to work anywhere in Europe (if you are from outside the EU). I know that the UK, France and Germany require them.
tsally 17y ago
(I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.) I can understand why visas might seem obsolete from a European perspective, but from an American perspective regulation is a necessity. Per year we already accept the highest number of permanent residents in the world. In 2008 we naturalized a record number of people. And most importantly, per year we grant the highest number of people political asylum. These numbers, combined with the fact that unemployment in the US is the highest it's been since the early 1940s, makes accepting large number of immigrants impossible. I'm not defending this bill or the current system; I know there are areas that need improvement. But fundamentally the US needs some sort of visa system.
- jseliger 17y ago
  "And most importantly, per year we grant the highest number of people political asylum. These numbers, combined with the fact that unemployment in the US is the highest it's been since the early 1940s, makes accepting large number of immigrants impossible." This claim is specious: the high-end immigrants who are likely to start tech companies and earn PhDs are enormously employable and likely to employ others. If you want more employment, bring in people who are likely to make jobs; notice the high number of tech startups with founders who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Still, I doubt that these visas are going to have any noticeable impact on unemployment because the rate at which they'll be granted isn't going to be high enough. As for immigration more generally, see James Fallows' comments here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline . Allowing immigration is one of the relatively few things that America does right.
- Yrlec 17y ago
  I still think you are able to accept more people into the country. In 2007 the Swedish city Södertälje (with about 80 000 cititzens) accepted more Iraqi refugees than the US & Canada combined: http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work/Life-in-Sweden/A-multicultural-society/Reading/Sodertalje/ http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work/Life-in-Sweden/A-multicul...
fierarul 17y ago
>(I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.) Heh, there are still people in EU countries (Romania, Bulgaria the least) that need visas to work in another EU country. So it's not all rosy within EU borders either.
- Kliment 17y ago
  As a Bulgarian citizen working in Germany, this is only partially the case. Germany does require work permits for Bulgarian citizens EMPLOYED here (except for certain exempt categories, such as scientific staff) but this does not apply to self-employment. In fact, there are no nationality restrictions for self-employment within the EU, and such restrictions would be illegal. So Bulgarian/Romanian citizens do need a permit to be employed within the EU countries that are still paranoid about their employment market, but don't need one to work there if self-employed.
ojbyrne 17y ago
As other people have commented, when you say "anachronistic" you really are being chauvinistic. I.e. you're assuming that there's no such thing as non-EU citizens who actually want to work in Europe. Those people face similar hurdles to those wanting to work in the US.
- adw 17y ago
  There are barriers, and it sucks that people can't do that. I'd be overjoyed if we had full freedom of movement across borders. That's what I mean; living in Europe you think about visas so rarely, despite crossing borders and looking at jobs overseas, that the whole idea begins to look archaic and paranoid.
  - randallsquared 17y ago
    That's true in the US as well, except that we no longer think of other states as "overseas", and a generation or two into the EU, neither will you guys. ;)

by adw 17y ago

blackguardx 17y ago

I currently live in the US. Can I just move to Europe and get a job? Or, do I have to do some sort of paperwork first (like get a visa)?

henrikschroder 17y ago
If you are not a EU citizen you need a residence permit and a work permit. I don't know how different the rules are between the EU countries, but it's roughly the same everwhere. A work permit is typically tied to an employer, and a residence permit is typically tied to a work permit. Here's the different kinds for Sweden: http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html http://www.migrationsverket.se/info/1074_en.html
- eagleal 17y ago
  Once you have a Visa/Residence permit (work) in one country you can freely move between all the EU countries. (I live in Italy with residence permit, so I know)
  - wheels 17y ago
    Usually you need a permanent residence permit (Greencard equivalent), and then it has to be a fairly recent one as the laws were only harmonized in the last 5 years. And even then, the permit for most of the EU isn't valid for the UK or Ireland. In Germany the first permit that you get (an H1B equivalent) is tied to one job, and hence, tied to the place where you have that job. After 5 years of working full-time (and a long string of other checklist items), you're eligible to begin the application process for permanent residence (which I now have).
    - eagleal 17y ago
      My fault, I don't know why I confused the permit to stay (expires every 2 years) with permanent residence. Well, in Italy you just need a home and revenue to obtain a permit to stay (work related). The permanent residence or permit to stay doesn't lock you to the first job it was issued for, though. However you can still (with the permit to stay) move between UE countries, just get back to Italy and declare revenue (as entrepreneur).
      - davidw 17y ago
        Whereabouts are you in Italy? You don't have any information in your profile. I'm in Padova.
        eagleal 17y ago
        Sorry for replying late, I just saw it. I'm in Perugia (Umbria, Central Italy).
- ohashi 17y ago
  Easiest to get a student visa here in Sweden (I know, I am on one!). They are also a lot easier to deal with once you are in the country and trying to extend... just show them you have money/income and won't be leaching off their system and they are happy.
- ig1 17y ago
  In the UK almost all professional level visas (tier 1, old HSMP) are person based rather than employer based, so you're free to change jobs

smallblacksun 17y ago

I'm pretty sure that visas are required to work anywhere in Europe (if you are from outside the EU). I know that the UK, France and Germany require them.

tsally 17y ago

(I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.) I can understand why visas might seem obsolete from a European perspective, but from an American perspective regulation is a necessity. Per year we already accept the highest number of permanent residents in the world. In 2008 we naturalized a record number of people. And most importantly, per year we grant the highest number of people political asylum. These numbers, combined with the fact that unemployment in the US is the highest it's been since the early 1940s, makes accepting large number of immigrants impossible. I'm not defending this bill or the current system; I know there are areas that need improvement. But fundamentally the US needs some sort of visa system.

jseliger 17y ago
"And most importantly, per year we grant the highest number of people political asylum. These numbers, combined with the fact that unemployment in the US is the highest it's been since the early 1940s, makes accepting large number of immigrants impossible." This claim is specious: the high-end immigrants who are likely to start tech companies and earn PhDs are enormously employable and likely to employ others. If you want more employment, bring in people who are likely to make jobs; notice the high number of tech startups with founders who are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Still, I doubt that these visas are going to have any noticeable impact on unemployment because the rate at which they'll be granted isn't going to be high enough. As for immigration more generally, see James Fallows' comments here: http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/201001/american-decline . Allowing immigration is one of the relatively few things that America does right.
Yrlec 17y ago
I still think you are able to accept more people into the country. In 2007 the Swedish city Södertälje (with about 80 000 cititzens) accepted more Iraqi refugees than the US & Canada combined: http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work/Life-in-Sweden/A-multicultural-society/Reading/Sodertalje/ http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work/Life-in-Sweden/A-multicul...

fierarul 17y ago

>(I have no horse in this race; living in Europe, the idea of a visa seems a bit anachronistic, really.) Heh, there are still people in EU countries (Romania, Bulgaria the least) that need visas to work in another EU country. So it's not all rosy within EU borders either.

Kliment 17y ago
As a Bulgarian citizen working in Germany, this is only partially the case. Germany does require work permits for Bulgarian citizens EMPLOYED here (except for certain exempt categories, such as scientific staff) but this does not apply to self-employment. In fact, there are no nationality restrictions for self-employment within the EU, and such restrictions would be illegal. So Bulgarian/Romanian citizens do need a permit to be employed within the EU countries that are still paranoid about their employment market, but don't need one to work there if self-employed.

ojbyrne 17y ago

As other people have commented, when you say "anachronistic" you really are being chauvinistic. I.e. you're assuming that there's no such thing as non-EU citizens who actually want to work in Europe. Those people face similar hurdles to those wanting to work in the US.

adw 17y ago
There are barriers, and it sucks that people can't do that. I'd be overjoyed if we had full freedom of movement across borders. That's what I mean; living in Europe you think about visas so rarely, despite crossing borders and looking at jobs overseas, that the whole idea begins to look archaic and paranoid.
- randallsquared 17y ago
  That's true in the US as well, except that we no longer think of other states as "overseas", and a generation or two into the EU, neither will you guys. ;)