4 ms·

Yes.

confiscate 11y ago
I washed your car once. The car was clean. You own the car and all the papers are under your name. I did not immediately ask for payment, and did not sign anything. 5 years later, when you sell your car, I show up and say I am entitled to ownership of your car because I washed it 5 years ago. There is a photo of me washing your car, so I am clearly involved. Do I own a part of your car?
- plskthx 11y ago
  You and I planted a tree together. It looked like it was going to be a nice tree, so we filed a joint application for funding from the city. The application was successful but I left before the funding came through. Years later, it turns out that this was a bona fide money tree. I think you and the city should put my name on some branches, since I was there in the beginning. If it takes 48 months for the tree to reach maturity, and I was there for the first month, then 1 branch for every 48 of your branches seems fair.
  - confiscate 11y ago
    You and I planted a tree together, and applied for funding from the city. You didn't show up for the interview. In the end the application was successful because of the effort of others on the team. At this point, no one owns the tree. I decide to officially file for ownership of the tree from the city government, paid all the filing fees, and was granted 100% of the tree with all the papers from the government. 5 years later, on the day I am about to sell my tree, you sue me for ownership of the tree. Does that seem fair? Or let's put this another way. I go on crunchbase, find 30 startups in Palo Alto, take their team info and write an application to an incubator and put myself as co-founder. I tell these startups about this and some of them decide to just ignore me because it's not worth the effort to tell me to go away. Years later, one of the startups is about to get sold. I have made zero contributions to the startups, but there is an application saying I had the title of co-founder. I decide I am entitled ownership of the company, because I helped them apply to an incubator. I sue them to block their acquisition. Would you allow me to do this?
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- Pyxl101 11y ago
  Washing someone's car does not entitle you to ownership of it. Founding a company and working for the company without pay does entitle you to equity in that company -- that is where the equity comes from; investments into the company and the labor of its founders (until hiring employees who are being compensated for their time and are not automatically entitled to equity, though a compensation plan might grant it).
  - confiscate 11y ago
    > Washing someone's car does not entitle you to ownership of it. Founding a company and working for the company without pay does entitle you to equity in that company Yes but washing the car without pay, is the same as working for a company without pay. In both cases there was labor without pay. Labor without pay does not mean ownership. He didn't "found" the company, otherwise there would be legal documents proving he already has equity in the company. Basically he's saying that getting an office is the same as "founding" a company, which is similar to saying that washing a car is the same as "owning" a car.
    - morgante 11y ago
      Until a company is incorporated, who do you think owns the company? Nobody at all? Does that mean I could go and incorporate your company for you and give myself all the equity? After all, you didn't incorporate it and give yourself equity already. In lieu of another contract, everyone who started the company together is an equal partner.
      - confiscate 11y ago
        Read the original article. It clearly states that Kyle incorporated the company before even meeting Jeremy. Kyle incorporated it mid-Sept-2013, and then met Jeremy end-of-Sept-2013. Jeremy then left Nov-2013, and never worked on Cruise again. > Until a company is incorporated, who do you think owns the company? Nobody at all? If a company is not incorporated, then it's NOT a company. There is nothing to own. For it to be legal you need to incorporate and pay taxes. > Does that mean I could go and incorporate your company for you and give myself all the equity? Yes, if I have a company for years and not incorporate, and not pay taxes, and operate without the government knowing, you can incorporate a company with the same name and at the same address and give the equity to yourself. You would have to pay all the taxes, register all the trademarks etc. but at the point you are essentially doing so much work running a company anyways there's no doubt that it's essentially your company. > In lieu of another contract, everyone who started the company together is an equal partner. That's my point. You don't need another contract. The incorporation and the equity papers IS the contract. If he had equity, he is a partner. If he didn't, he is not. That's the contract. Yes, everyone who did the original incorporation is an equal partner, that's fine I agree with that. But clearly Jeremy WAS NOT part of the original incorporation, and NEVER owned ANY stock after all these years. He wants to be paid AS IF he was the one who incorporated the company, AS IF he had equity.
- Swannie 11y ago
  Poor analogy. You and a friend washed a car once. You didn't charge anything for it. You, but not your friend, continued washing the car every week, whether it was clean or dirty. When you went to the owner for payment, he gave you $300 for washing it. You washed it approximately 15 times. Your friend requests 1/16th of the payment. He also claims that without his help in the first place, this would not have converted into a paid venture for either of you (which is hard to prove), and therefore that initial input was worth more than the 1/16th, and requests an additional % of the share.
  - confiscate 11y ago
    Let's use your analogy. When you went to the owner for payment, he gave you $300 for washing the car. The owner gave you, not your friend. You. The owner only wants to pay you for your efforts, and at not point wanted to pay your friend. Instead of asking the owner for payment, your friend now demands part of your $300, because you are less intimidating to bully around. Your friend also demands a portion of all the money from all other cars you have washed after that time you washed a car together. Because if it wasn't for that first car wash together, he claims you would not have been able to figure out the sales process for washing cars for money. So he is entitled to dividends for eternity.
- michaelmcmillan 11y ago
  That is a flawed analogy. It would be correct if you replaced "washed" with "made".
  - confiscate 11y ago
    Good point

Yes.

I washed your car once. The car was clean. You own the car and all the papers are under your name. I did not immediately ask for payment, and did not sign anything. 5 years later, when you sell your car, I show up and say I am entitled to ownership of your car because I washed it 5 years ago. There is a photo of me washing your car, so I am clearly involved. Do I own a part of your car?

plskthx 11y ago
You and I planted a tree together. It looked like it was going to be a nice tree, so we filed a joint application for funding from the city. The application was successful but I left before the funding came through. Years later, it turns out that this was a bona fide money tree. I think you and the city should put my name on some branches, since I was there in the beginning. If it takes 48 months for the tree to reach maturity, and I was there for the first month, then 1 branch for every 48 of your branches seems fair.
- confiscate 11y ago
  You and I planted a tree together, and applied for funding from the city. You didn't show up for the interview. In the end the application was successful because of the effort of others on the team. At this point, no one owns the tree. I decide to officially file for ownership of the tree from the city government, paid all the filing fees, and was granted 100% of the tree with all the papers from the government. 5 years later, on the day I am about to sell my tree, you sue me for ownership of the tree. Does that seem fair? Or let's put this another way. I go on crunchbase, find 30 startups in Palo Alto, take their team info and write an application to an incubator and put myself as co-founder. I tell these startups about this and some of them decide to just ignore me because it's not worth the effort to tell me to go away. Years later, one of the startups is about to get sold. I have made zero contributions to the startups, but there is an application saying I had the title of co-founder. I decide I am entitled ownership of the company, because I helped them apply to an incubator. I sue them to block their acquisition. Would you allow me to do this?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
Pyxl101 11y ago
Washing someone's car does not entitle you to ownership of it. Founding a company and working for the company without pay does entitle you to equity in that company -- that is where the equity comes from; investments into the company and the labor of its founders (until hiring employees who are being compensated for their time and are not automatically entitled to equity, though a compensation plan might grant it).
- confiscate 11y ago
  > Washing someone's car does not entitle you to ownership of it. Founding a company and working for the company without pay does entitle you to equity in that company Yes but washing the car without pay, is the same as working for a company without pay. In both cases there was labor without pay. Labor without pay does not mean ownership. He didn't "found" the company, otherwise there would be legal documents proving he already has equity in the company. Basically he's saying that getting an office is the same as "founding" a company, which is similar to saying that washing a car is the same as "owning" a car.
  - morgante 11y ago
    Until a company is incorporated, who do you think owns the company? Nobody at all? Does that mean I could go and incorporate your company for you and give myself all the equity? After all, you didn't incorporate it and give yourself equity already. In lieu of another contract, everyone who started the company together is an equal partner.
    - confiscate 11y ago
      Read the original article. It clearly states that Kyle incorporated the company before even meeting Jeremy. Kyle incorporated it mid-Sept-2013, and then met Jeremy end-of-Sept-2013. Jeremy then left Nov-2013, and never worked on Cruise again. > Until a company is incorporated, who do you think owns the company? Nobody at all? If a company is not incorporated, then it's NOT a company. There is nothing to own. For it to be legal you need to incorporate and pay taxes. > Does that mean I could go and incorporate your company for you and give myself all the equity? Yes, if I have a company for years and not incorporate, and not pay taxes, and operate without the government knowing, you can incorporate a company with the same name and at the same address and give the equity to yourself. You would have to pay all the taxes, register all the trademarks etc. but at the point you are essentially doing so much work running a company anyways there's no doubt that it's essentially your company. > In lieu of another contract, everyone who started the company together is an equal partner. That's my point. You don't need another contract. The incorporation and the equity papers IS the contract. If he had equity, he is a partner. If he didn't, he is not. That's the contract. Yes, everyone who did the original incorporation is an equal partner, that's fine I agree with that. But clearly Jeremy WAS NOT part of the original incorporation, and NEVER owned ANY stock after all these years. He wants to be paid AS IF he was the one who incorporated the company, AS IF he had equity.
Swannie 11y ago
Poor analogy. You and a friend washed a car once. You didn't charge anything for it. You, but not your friend, continued washing the car every week, whether it was clean or dirty. When you went to the owner for payment, he gave you $300 for washing it. You washed it approximately 15 times. Your friend requests 1/16th of the payment. He also claims that without his help in the first place, this would not have converted into a paid venture for either of you (which is hard to prove), and therefore that initial input was worth more than the 1/16th, and requests an additional % of the share.
- confiscate 11y ago
  Let's use your analogy. When you went to the owner for payment, he gave you $300 for washing the car. The owner gave you, not your friend. You. The owner only wants to pay you for your efforts, and at not point wanted to pay your friend. Instead of asking the owner for payment, your friend now demands part of your $300, because you are less intimidating to bully around. Your friend also demands a portion of all the money from all other cars you have washed after that time you washed a car together. Because if it wasn't for that first car wash together, he claims you would not have been able to figure out the sales process for washing cars for money. So he is entitled to dividends for eternity.
michaelmcmillan 11y ago
That is a flawed analogy. It would be correct if you replaced "washed" with "made".
- confiscate 11y ago
  Good point