4 ms·

Cool plot line, I'd go see that movie. A related scenario, one that theoretically could happen today, is hacking into commercial airliners auto-pilot systems,

by rayval 10y ago

Cool plot line, I'd go see that movie. A related scenario, one that theoretically could happen today, is hacking into commercial airliners auto-pilot systems, and directing dozens of flights onto a target. Set aside the fantasy movie plot angle, how realistic is this today? Is it any more or less plausible than the millions of cars scenario? If people are truly concerned about the car scenario, shouldn't they be worrying about the aircraft scenario?

seanp2k2 10y ago
In the airplane case, it's possible today: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk And https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3nXXZgqmg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3nXXZgqmg TL;DR you simulate a bunch of other planes in close proximity and the auto-pilot freaks out and tries to avoid them. As the second talk explains, the pilots would definitely notice and switch autopilot off. This is why IMO it's very important to not take ultimate control away from humans in cars. I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. It already freaks me out that many cars are drive-by-wire (for the accelerator), and now even steer-by-wire: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-feel-nissan-digitizes-steering-but-the-wheel-remains-feature http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-feel-nissan-di... #noThankYouPlease
- blackflame7000 10y ago
  If a fuel injection system were to fail via fried component or even a short would trip a fuse and cause it to fail safe by cutting fuel and shutting off the car. Fuel Throttle cables however have definitely become stuck in their sheathing in the WOT position. Happened to my dad on the highway in a 1992 Rodeo Isuzu.
- landryraccoon 10y ago
  > I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. It won't matter if all the other cars on the road besides yours don't have controls.
- sk5t 10y ago
  A minor point, but the electronic accelerator control in autos is called "throttle-by-wire."
  - dfox 10y ago
    I've always seen that called EPC for Electronic Pedal Control, but that is probably VW-ism. On the other hand on EFI car, having mechanical throttle cable does not add much to hack-safety as the ECU always has some way to override closed throttle (either disengaging throttle pedal mechanically switches the control of throttle to ECU operated servo or there is completely separate throttle controlled by ECU).
- neurotech1 10y ago
  No current airliner will automatically change course in response to a traffic conflict. If TCAS [0] gives an advisory, the pilot takes manual control or reprograms the autopilot. Spoofing transponder returns wouldn't do much to the aircraft except annoy the pilots. Another reason traffic spoofing wouldn't cause the aircraft to deviate is that airliners fly standard approaches and departures (STAR [1] and SID [2]) and heavy traffic away from the approach paths would definitely get noticed. Even the fly-by-wire Airbus can be flown manually using differential thrust and/or pitch trim control. The only time I've heard of an Airbus loosing control of a damaged engine is when the electrical cable was physically severed. This was Qantas QF32 [1], after one engine exploded and damaged the cables to another engine. To "take over" an aircraft with pilots in the cockpit, would require the compromise to multiple systems. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_terminal_arrival_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_terminal_arrival_rout... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_instrument_departure_(SID) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_instrument_departure_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32
- EmployedRussian 10y ago
  > I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. Google cars have the Big Red Button, which shuts off self-driving system and brings the car to a stop. What more controls do you need?
  - infinite8s 10y ago
    When are you barreling down a highway at 65 miles per hour, turning off the car might not be the best solution.
    - EmployedRussian 10y ago
      When you are barreling down a highway at 65 miles per hour and are not paying attention (and you wouldn't, because the car drives itself just fine), giving you controls is much more dangerous (for you and others around you) then not. Urmson talks about it here: https://youtu.be/Uj-rK8V-rik?t=14m3s https://youtu.be/Uj-rK8V-rik?t=14m3s
pavel_lishin 10y ago
> hacking into commercial airliners auto-pilot systems, and directing dozens of flights onto a target. I would imagine that any pilot would figure out what was going on, unless it was on an incredibly foggy day.
- blackflame7000 10y ago
  It's Hollywood, name one movie where the villain did not disable the manual override. That's villainy 101.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    Sure, but rayval was talking about a scenario that could happen today. Although looking at the other comments, I think I'm significantly underestimating just how much of modern airliners is dependent on software. The pilots might be able to see that they're heading for disaster, but may not be able to do anything about it.
    - blackflame7000 10y ago
      I know for a fact that there are 3 separate computer systems from 3 separate manufacturers on each Boeing airplane. Auto-pilot always uses the consensus of the 3 machines. It's a pretty far-fetched scenario in real life so I thought we were talking fiction.
      - coredog64 10y ago
        Former Boeing software engineer, worked on engineering simulators (where real hardware was in the loop): There is an idea of triple channel autolanding, wherein the plane uses the consensus of the three autolanding systems. Should no consensus be available, then the pilot is advised that autolanding is not available. Other than that, any sourcing from different manufacturers is happenstance. 737 avionics are sourced from a different vendor than 747/757/767/777. And different functions can come from different vendors, although vendor consolidation has cut down on that. I'm not across what happened post 777, as I left Boeing in 1999.
LeifCarrotson 10y ago
I will disagree with the other commenter and say that this is more plausible for the aircraft than for the cars. Modern jetliners and military aircraft (scarrier yet) are purely fly-by-wire - there aren't cables running between the yokes and the control surfaces like in a Piper Cub, and if there were, no pilot would be strong enough to move them. Yes, the autopilots can be turned off, but that's just a button, probably a button on the autopilot itself. Depending where the infection happens, the actual position of the yoke could be entirely ignored by the software. Or the motor controllers for the control surfaces themselves could be driving the plane, though I don't know how they could coordinate their actions and get feedback from an IMU. Perhaps the pilots could rip out components and cut cables fast enough to prevent the plane from reaching its destination, and maybe they could tear out the affected component and limp back to a runway with what remains, but it's an entirely feasible movie plot. But should we actually worry about either? No. The software sourcing, deployment and updating protocols at the various manufacturers of aircraft are certain to be secure. Right?
- mschuster91 10y ago
  > Yes, the autopilots can be turned off, but that's just a button, probably a button on the autopilot itself. Airplaine components tend to have shitloads of fuses for each components, any trained pilot knows how to disable the fuse for the autopilot system (or, in an extreme case, ALL fuses to kill the entire airplane).
- SixSigma 10y ago
  In 2007 the FAA revealed the Boeing 787 had passenger Internet traffic and flight control traffic on the same network separated via software firewall. This gives us the classic reassuring response from Boeing spokeswoman Lori Gunter : "There are places where the networks are not touching, and there are places where they are," she said. http://www.wired.com/2008/01/dreamliner-security/ http://www.wired.com/2008/01/dreamliner-security/
  - m_mueller 10y ago
    "had"? So it's fixed now, did they rewire the whole network?

by rayval 10y ago

seanp2k2 10y ago

In the airplane case, it's possible today: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CXv1j3GbgLk And https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3nXXZgqmg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy3nXXZgqmg TL;DR you simulate a bunch of other planes in close proximity and the auto-pilot freaks out and tries to avoid them. As the second talk explains, the pilots would definitely notice and switch autopilot off. This is why IMO it's very important to not take ultimate control away from humans in cars. I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. It already freaks me out that many cars are drive-by-wire (for the accelerator), and now even steer-by-wire: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-feel-nissan-digitizes-steering-but-the-wheel-remains-feature http://www.caranddriver.com/features/electric-feel-nissan-di... #noThankYouPlease

blackflame7000 10y ago
If a fuel injection system were to fail via fried component or even a short would trip a fuse and cause it to fail safe by cutting fuel and shutting off the car. Fuel Throttle cables however have definitely become stuck in their sheathing in the WOT position. Happened to my dad on the highway in a 1992 Rodeo Isuzu.
landryraccoon 10y ago
> I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. It won't matter if all the other cars on the road besides yours don't have controls.
sk5t 10y ago
A minor point, but the electronic accelerator control in autos is called "throttle-by-wire."
- dfox 10y ago
  I've always seen that called EPC for Electronic Pedal Control, but that is probably VW-ism. On the other hand on EFI car, having mechanical throttle cable does not add much to hack-safety as the ECU always has some way to override closed throttle (either disengaging throttle pedal mechanically switches the control of throttle to ECU operated servo or there is completely separate throttle controlled by ECU).
neurotech1 10y ago
No current airliner will automatically change course in response to a traffic conflict. If TCAS [0] gives an advisory, the pilot takes manual control or reprograms the autopilot. Spoofing transponder returns wouldn't do much to the aircraft except annoy the pilots. Another reason traffic spoofing wouldn't cause the aircraft to deviate is that airliners fly standard approaches and departures (STAR [1] and SID [2]) and heavy traffic away from the approach paths would definitely get noticed. Even the fly-by-wire Airbus can be flown manually using differential thrust and/or pitch trim control. The only time I've heard of an Airbus loosing control of a damaged engine is when the electrical cable was physically severed. This was Qantas QF32 [1], after one engine exploded and damaged the cables to another engine. To "take over" an aircraft with pilots in the cockpit, would require the compromise to multiple systems. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_terminal_arrival_route https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_terminal_arrival_rout... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_instrument_departure_(SID) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_instrument_departure_... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32
EmployedRussian 10y ago
> I would personally never buy one of the Google (or any other) self-driving models with no controls. Google cars have the Big Red Button, which shuts off self-driving system and brings the car to a stop. What more controls do you need?
- infinite8s 10y ago
  When are you barreling down a highway at 65 miles per hour, turning off the car might not be the best solution.
  - EmployedRussian 10y ago
    When you are barreling down a highway at 65 miles per hour and are not paying attention (and you wouldn't, because the car drives itself just fine), giving you controls is much more dangerous (for you and others around you) then not. Urmson talks about it here: https://youtu.be/Uj-rK8V-rik?t=14m3s https://youtu.be/Uj-rK8V-rik?t=14m3s

pavel_lishin 10y ago

> hacking into commercial airliners auto-pilot systems, and directing dozens of flights onto a target. I would imagine that any pilot would figure out what was going on, unless it was on an incredibly foggy day.

blackflame7000 10y ago
It's Hollywood, name one movie where the villain did not disable the manual override. That's villainy 101.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Sure, but rayval was talking about a scenario that could happen today. Although looking at the other comments, I think I'm significantly underestimating just how much of modern airliners is dependent on software. The pilots might be able to see that they're heading for disaster, but may not be able to do anything about it.
  - blackflame7000 10y ago
    I know for a fact that there are 3 separate computer systems from 3 separate manufacturers on each Boeing airplane. Auto-pilot always uses the consensus of the 3 machines. It's a pretty far-fetched scenario in real life so I thought we were talking fiction.
    - coredog64 10y ago
      Former Boeing software engineer, worked on engineering simulators (where real hardware was in the loop): There is an idea of triple channel autolanding, wherein the plane uses the consensus of the three autolanding systems. Should no consensus be available, then the pilot is advised that autolanding is not available. Other than that, any sourcing from different manufacturers is happenstance. 737 avionics are sourced from a different vendor than 747/757/767/777. And different functions can come from different vendors, although vendor consolidation has cut down on that. I'm not across what happened post 777, as I left Boeing in 1999.

LeifCarrotson 10y ago

I will disagree with the other commenter and say that this is more plausible for the aircraft than for the cars. Modern jetliners and military aircraft (scarrier yet) are purely fly-by-wire - there aren't cables running between the yokes and the control surfaces like in a Piper Cub, and if there were, no pilot would be strong enough to move them. Yes, the autopilots can be turned off, but that's just a button, probably a button on the autopilot itself. Depending where the infection happens, the actual position of the yoke could be entirely ignored by the software. Or the motor controllers for the control surfaces themselves could be driving the plane, though I don't know how they could coordinate their actions and get feedback from an IMU. Perhaps the pilots could rip out components and cut cables fast enough to prevent the plane from reaching its destination, and maybe they could tear out the affected component and limp back to a runway with what remains, but it's an entirely feasible movie plot. But should we actually worry about either? No. The software sourcing, deployment and updating protocols at the various manufacturers of aircraft are certain to be secure. Right?

mschuster91 10y ago
> Yes, the autopilots can be turned off, but that's just a button, probably a button on the autopilot itself. Airplaine components tend to have shitloads of fuses for each components, any trained pilot knows how to disable the fuse for the autopilot system (or, in an extreme case, ALL fuses to kill the entire airplane).
SixSigma 10y ago
In 2007 the FAA revealed the Boeing 787 had passenger Internet traffic and flight control traffic on the same network separated via software firewall. This gives us the classic reassuring response from Boeing spokeswoman Lori Gunter : "There are places where the networks are not touching, and there are places where they are," she said. http://www.wired.com/2008/01/dreamliner-security/ http://www.wired.com/2008/01/dreamliner-security/
- m_mueller 10y ago
  "had"? So it's fixed now, did they rewire the whole network?