6 ms·

Speaking from a country's self interest, don't rich people benefit the country more than poor? Isn't the US better off tax-wise, and wealthier, if it is able to

by ericb 17y ago

Speaking from a country's self interest, don't rich people benefit the country more than poor? Isn't the US better off tax-wise, and wealthier, if it is able to tax a millionaire than a cab driver? Is there something morally objectionable about trying to attract "desirables" or is it just that we need to see the visa process in some way as "fair?"

chime 17y ago
> don't rich people benefit the country more than poor? Questions like that cannot be answered in any definite manner. If the rich use their capital to create wealth, then it benefits the country. If the rich use it to alter public policy to their advantage, then it harms the country. A new visa process should not enable the rich to game the system unfairly to their advantage at the expense of other prospective applicants.
potatolicious 17y ago
Speaking as a Canadian who immigrated from Asia, and know a large number of rich Asians who have also followed the same path, the situation is really not as simple as you put it. The rich are in no way obligated to share their wealth with you - as the Canadian government has unfortunately learned. Our immigration programs have three paths: skilled labour, investment, and entrepreneurial. Skilled labour is simply letting people in who have skills we need, investment expects that you invest a $HIGH_AMOUNT into the Canadian economy (with the expectation, not requirement, of more), and entrepreneurial requires that you run your own business for $TIME before you qualify for citizenship. The first category is usually a win for the country, since these people seek employment and are taxable, not to mention you didn't have to pay for their education. The second and third categories are fundamentally broken - I personally know many families who do the absolute bare minimum to hit the permanent residency requirements, and keep all of their wealth off the books in Asia, bringing them in literal suitcases of cash (staying just under the declaration limit each time). Heck, I know families that are receiving government benefits for low-income families even though they have millions in property overseas. My point is, unless you require rich immigrants to give up a huge chunk of money just to get in, expecting that the rich will contribute to your tax base is IMHO misguided. These people are already rich, for cryin' out loud.
- ericb 17y ago
  Are they bringing the money in suitcases for the purpose of spending it? Wouldn't that be taxed in the recipient of the spending's income?
  - holygoat 17y ago
    And in sales taxes.
- nzmsv 17y ago
  Many countries, Canada included, have bilateral agreements on only taxing income once. So, if these people you know make money off foreign property, they pay taxes on it in the country where it is located. They do not have to pay taxes again in Canada. Which I think is fair: would you want to pay double taxes on your income?
  - btilly 17y ago
    Double check the relevant treaties. They are often written to say that where double taxation exists, the secondary country may collect their usual tax minus what was paid to the primary. Therefore if the secondary country has a higher tax rate, there is an incentive to keep it off the books. That said, Canadian law tends to tax people on Canadian earnings. (Or at least it did the last time I paid attention, which was admittedly 15 years ago or so.) Which contrasts to US law that taxes US citizens on worldwide earnings (though the US does give a large exemption for foreign sourced income that keeps this from affecting a lot of people).
  - potatolicious 17y ago
    This is not about double-taxation - but rather that taxes in Canada are higher than just about any place in Asia (for good reason: Canada has considerably more social assistance programs than most Asian countries).
fnid2 17y ago
Honestly, this is a philosophical question that I can't offer an answer to without the potential contamination of lots of personal bias, but I'll tell you how I think about it. A lot of countries have a lot of rich people at the helm and aren't really, what I would call, benefiting from that. It could even be argued that a lot of the problems in countries are caused by the rich. I think about it kind of like this: We all want to keep getting richer. I just take that as the rule from which I derive a couple more points on this topic. First, to be a noticeable increase in wealth, that increase must be appreciable. It must be felt by the wealthy person. I think to appreciate it, it must be a certain percentage change. We probably wouldn't notice a 0.05% increase in our wealth, but we would notice a 50% increase. Second, assume rich people and poor people desire an equivalent feeling of wealth growth. If I make $10k a year, $1,000 more next year will feel great. I'll have almost $100 more to spend a month. Someone making $100k desires an increase in wealth of $10,000 a year. Now, if we spread that $10,000 worth of wealth created to make the rich person feel better to the poor people who only needed $1,000 additional a year to feel better, we could have made 10 people happier, instead of just one person happier when that money went to the rich person. $20,000 worth of wealth could make 20 people happier, instead of 1 rich person and 10 poor people = 11 people. If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. If one person experienced elation at the expense of the whole world, would that be good? Not to suggest that I would offer to harm a minority to bring joy to the world. But I do wonder if growth is beneficial. I think it may not be. It could be bad. So, I am not sure how to answer your question. I do not know for a fact if it is in a country's self interest to encourage the growth of the investor class with at least $10M in the bank. It may take a lot of stagnation or depression among the working class or creative class to create additional wealth for an already rich minority. Further from that, if you raise the foundation, quantified as the poverty line perhaps, then it increases the quality of everyone's lives, even the rich. There's less crime, less blight, and people are simply much more pleasant to be around than when there are huge disparities between the rich and the poor.
- lionhearted 17y ago
  > If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. This is a bit tangential, but I think it's quite important - Greatest Good is a very important belief for someone to consider, and you've written really thoughtfully and introspectively. Here's my perspective, which is a little different: Sometimes I voluntarily do things to make other people happier. I donate to St. Jude's Children Hospital in the USA, and I've run two small charity events for Great Ormond Street Children's in London, raising a tiny bit of money for sick kids and their families. When I was younger and Catholic, I also volunteered for the Catholic Arts Festival, and I've volunteered at soup kitchens. I spend lots of my time teaching pretty much anyone who cares at all whatever they want to know, including last month teaching a really nice 26-year-old kindergarten teacher how to negotiate for better pay after she got an offer at a great school but they were offering below market pay. I spent three hours teaching her how to negotiate, see others' points of view, and leave it open for them to raise their offer without increasing hostility. I did this just because I like to do good things, I didn't get anything in return except a feeling of doing something good. So, I really like helping people. But once someone says, you need to help this person, or you're in trouble - my skin crawls. I hate it. It sends every signal to me to resist, to fight, to fight back, to counterattack, to throw off these mandates and chains people would place on me. They want my resources by force? They want my time by force? They want to restrict freely where I can go, and what I can do, and who I can trade with, and what I can buy for myself, and what I can do in my own home, in my own company, with my own friends, and so on, and so on? To that - to that I say no. Or rather, if they've got me out-gunned, I submit, but I grit my teeth and submit. You see, I think I aim to make myself overwhelmingly a net positive anywhere I go. I try to be polite and respect local culture, share the best things from my culture, teach people, learn, work, prosper, and make others prosper. But frequently people say, "We could do even more good!" And so, with that justification, they limit my mobility, or give a regulator the authority to regulate a transaction between me and another person, or pass a tax, or conscript, or close borders, or so on. I'm against that all tremendously. So this is an alternative perspective on Greatest Good for Greatest Number. I'm against it, because I know I do right by people, and I feel comfortable ethically with how much I contribute. I feel pretty good about what I do, actually. And I think anyone who isn't a criminal and can support themselves should be largely allowed to do what they like, without fear of being beaten down if they don't do what authorities say is right. It doesn't particularly matter to me how legitimate the authorities believe they are - whether they've got a divine right of kings, or are blessed and anointed by the head of the church, or are elected through direct democracy, or representational democracy - maybe their governorship is more or less legitimate, but if they start saying, "We must do the greatest good, you must do this, you can't do that - in the name of good" I get very upset and believe that's wrong. I submit, because they're much much stronger than me, but it's with a mix of teeth gritted, sadness, and indignation. This isn't a right or wrong perspective per se, I just wanted to take a moment to share an alternate one with you. It's a little bit tangential from the investor discussion, but I think it's really important to think about.

by ericb 17y ago

chime 17y ago

> don't rich people benefit the country more than poor? Questions like that cannot be answered in any definite manner. If the rich use their capital to create wealth, then it benefits the country. If the rich use it to alter public policy to their advantage, then it harms the country. A new visa process should not enable the rich to game the system unfairly to their advantage at the expense of other prospective applicants.

potatolicious 17y ago

Speaking as a Canadian who immigrated from Asia, and know a large number of rich Asians who have also followed the same path, the situation is really not as simple as you put it. The rich are in no way obligated to share their wealth with you - as the Canadian government has unfortunately learned. Our immigration programs have three paths: skilled labour, investment, and entrepreneurial. Skilled labour is simply letting people in who have skills we need, investment expects that you invest a $HIGH_AMOUNT into the Canadian economy (with the expectation, not requirement, of more), and entrepreneurial requires that you run your own business for $TIME before you qualify for citizenship. The first category is usually a win for the country, since these people seek employment and are taxable, not to mention you didn't have to pay for their education. The second and third categories are fundamentally broken - I personally know many families who do the absolute bare minimum to hit the permanent residency requirements, and keep all of their wealth off the books in Asia, bringing them in literal suitcases of cash (staying just under the declaration limit each time). Heck, I know families that are receiving government benefits for low-income families even though they have millions in property overseas. My point is, unless you require rich immigrants to give up a huge chunk of money just to get in, expecting that the rich will contribute to your tax base is IMHO misguided. These people are already rich, for cryin' out loud.

ericb 17y ago
Are they bringing the money in suitcases for the purpose of spending it? Wouldn't that be taxed in the recipient of the spending's income?
- holygoat 17y ago
  And in sales taxes.
nzmsv 17y ago
Many countries, Canada included, have bilateral agreements on only taxing income once. So, if these people you know make money off foreign property, they pay taxes on it in the country where it is located. They do not have to pay taxes again in Canada. Which I think is fair: would you want to pay double taxes on your income?
- btilly 17y ago
  Double check the relevant treaties. They are often written to say that where double taxation exists, the secondary country may collect their usual tax minus what was paid to the primary. Therefore if the secondary country has a higher tax rate, there is an incentive to keep it off the books. That said, Canadian law tends to tax people on Canadian earnings. (Or at least it did the last time I paid attention, which was admittedly 15 years ago or so.) Which contrasts to US law that taxes US citizens on worldwide earnings (though the US does give a large exemption for foreign sourced income that keeps this from affecting a lot of people).
- potatolicious 17y ago
  This is not about double-taxation - but rather that taxes in Canada are higher than just about any place in Asia (for good reason: Canada has considerably more social assistance programs than most Asian countries).

fnid2 17y ago

Honestly, this is a philosophical question that I can't offer an answer to without the potential contamination of lots of personal bias, but I'll tell you how I think about it. A lot of countries have a lot of rich people at the helm and aren't really, what I would call, benefiting from that. It could even be argued that a lot of the problems in countries are caused by the rich. I think about it kind of like this: We all want to keep getting richer. I just take that as the rule from which I derive a couple more points on this topic. First, to be a noticeable increase in wealth, that increase must be appreciable. It must be felt by the wealthy person. I think to appreciate it, it must be a certain percentage change. We probably wouldn't notice a 0.05% increase in our wealth, but we would notice a 50% increase. Second, assume rich people and poor people desire an equivalent feeling of wealth growth. If I make $10k a year, $1,000 more next year will feel great. I'll have almost $100 more to spend a month. Someone making $100k desires an increase in wealth of $10,000 a year. Now, if we spread that $10,000 worth of wealth created to make the rich person feel better to the poor people who only needed $1,000 additional a year to feel better, we could have made 10 people happier, instead of just one person happier when that money went to the rich person. $20,000 worth of wealth could make 20 people happier, instead of 1 rich person and 10 poor people = 11 people. If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. If one person experienced elation at the expense of the whole world, would that be good? Not to suggest that I would offer to harm a minority to bring joy to the world. But I do wonder if growth is beneficial. I think it may not be. It could be bad. So, I am not sure how to answer your question. I do not know for a fact if it is in a country's self interest to encourage the growth of the investor class with at least $10M in the bank. It may take a lot of stagnation or depression among the working class or creative class to create additional wealth for an already rich minority. Further from that, if you raise the foundation, quantified as the poverty line perhaps, then it increases the quality of everyone's lives, even the rich. There's less crime, less blight, and people are simply much more pleasant to be around than when there are huge disparities between the rich and the poor.

lionhearted 17y ago
> If you believe in Greatest Good for the Greatest Number anyway, but not all subscribe to that philosophy. I do I think. This is a bit tangential, but I think it's quite important - Greatest Good is a very important belief for someone to consider, and you've written really thoughtfully and introspectively. Here's my perspective, which is a little different: Sometimes I voluntarily do things to make other people happier. I donate to St. Jude's Children Hospital in the USA, and I've run two small charity events for Great Ormond Street Children's in London, raising a tiny bit of money for sick kids and their families. When I was younger and Catholic, I also volunteered for the Catholic Arts Festival, and I've volunteered at soup kitchens. I spend lots of my time teaching pretty much anyone who cares at all whatever they want to know, including last month teaching a really nice 26-year-old kindergarten teacher how to negotiate for better pay after she got an offer at a great school but they were offering below market pay. I spent three hours teaching her how to negotiate, see others' points of view, and leave it open for them to raise their offer without increasing hostility. I did this just because I like to do good things, I didn't get anything in return except a feeling of doing something good. So, I really like helping people. But once someone says, you need to help this person, or you're in trouble - my skin crawls. I hate it. It sends every signal to me to resist, to fight, to fight back, to counterattack, to throw off these mandates and chains people would place on me. They want my resources by force? They want my time by force? They want to restrict freely where I can go, and what I can do, and who I can trade with, and what I can buy for myself, and what I can do in my own home, in my own company, with my own friends, and so on, and so on? To that - to that I say no. Or rather, if they've got me out-gunned, I submit, but I grit my teeth and submit. You see, I think I aim to make myself overwhelmingly a net positive anywhere I go. I try to be polite and respect local culture, share the best things from my culture, teach people, learn, work, prosper, and make others prosper. But frequently people say, "We could do even more good!" And so, with that justification, they limit my mobility, or give a regulator the authority to regulate a transaction between me and another person, or pass a tax, or conscript, or close borders, or so on. I'm against that all tremendously. So this is an alternative perspective on Greatest Good for Greatest Number. I'm against it, because I know I do right by people, and I feel comfortable ethically with how much I contribute. I feel pretty good about what I do, actually. And I think anyone who isn't a criminal and can support themselves should be largely allowed to do what they like, without fear of being beaten down if they don't do what authorities say is right. It doesn't particularly matter to me how legitimate the authorities believe they are - whether they've got a divine right of kings, or are blessed and anointed by the head of the church, or are elected through direct democracy, or representational democracy - maybe their governorship is more or less legitimate, but if they start saying, "We must do the greatest good, you must do this, you can't do that - in the name of good" I get very upset and believe that's wrong. I submit, because they're much much stronger than me, but it's with a mix of teeth gritted, sadness, and indignation. This isn't a right or wrong perspective per se, I just wanted to take a moment to share an alternate one with you. It's a little bit tangential from the investor discussion, but I think it's really important to think about.