4 ms·

I disagree. VS, Clion, Eclipse etc. have very different key bindings and differ significantly in the way projects are set up and regarding underlying build mech

I disagree. VS, Clion, Eclipse etc. have very different key bindings and differ significantly in the way projects are set up and regarding underlying build mechanisms. These are all things you need to learn to be proficient with a tool. Once you are beyond a superficial use of a tool, a slightly steeper initial learning curve pales in contrast of what you need to reach a certain level.

zerr 11y ago
Well, then you have a GUI - menus/toolbars and after a couple of times use - you just remember the key binding usually specified along the label.
- AnonymousPlanet 11y ago
  I'm not talking about superficial usage like that. I'm talking about productivity boosts like multiline edits, line swapping, cursor jumping over blocks, and more advanced tricks. Also about where to do all those little tweaks to the configuration you need to google for or ask a coworker about to get a hold of. Those are not discoverable with any GUI.
  - eitland 11y ago
    > ... Those are not discoverable with any GUI. But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while. Examples (Primarily Netbeans on Windows and Linux): Alt + shift + arrow -> move line(s) up/down or (de)indent. Ctrl + shift + arrow up/down -> duplicate line up and down etc. Most of you already know I guess but I guess there are always some who didn't realize that on Windows and Linux (desktops that is) you can mostly always rely on arrow -> move ctrl + arrow -> move one word at a time shift + arrow -> move while selecting and combined: ctrl-shift-arrow -> select whole words at a time --- While I can find my way around vim and have also given emacs an honest try for me it was not worth it. If typing speed becomes an issue for me it is a sign of a deeper problem ;-) That said I use a lot of multiline edits for database hacks, but what I really saves me some time and frustration when dealing with legacy code is * Really good refactoring support * ctrl-shift-d in Netbeans which brings up a stack of my latest cuts * regex search/replace in Netbeans. Yes, that means you can search for something(crazyregexgoeshere)(anotherregex) and replace with somethingelse-$1-$2 If anyone is interested I might try to compile an overview of some of my workflows (no promise though)
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      For Emacs: > ctrl-shift-d in Netbeans which brings up a stack of my latest cuts Eval (or bind yourself to a key): (popup-menu 'yank-menu) Also, the whole copy-paste infrastructure works with that "stack" ("kill ring" in Emacs speak), so you can easily paste previous cuts via pressing M-y after pasting (C-y). > regex search/replace in Netbeans. Yes, that means you can search for something(crazyregexgoeshere)(anotherregex) and replace with somethingelse-$1-$2 M-x regexp-replace; use \N instead of $N. Besides features related strictly to understanding of Java code semantics, it's unlikely Emacs doesn't have something Netbeans has :).
    - AnonymousPlanet 11y ago
      > But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while. Um, no. Just line swapping is different across IDEs. The same is true for other advanced editing moves. We're not merely talking about feature set Notepad or some random edit box has. For Emacs/Vim, the time investment to get from extendable editor to, say, a C++ IDE parity is greater than it is for a dedicated IDE. Personally, I use dedicated IDEs for where they shine (Java, C++, ...) and simple but powerful editors elsewhere. I love using Emacs for writing documentation because of all the advanced features it provides for text editing. So we're probably in the same boat on this. My point is that once you have gone beyond the initial setup and superficial use, becoming a proficient expert at the tool takes equal effort.
  - cname 11y ago
    > Those are not discoverable with any GUI. Are you sure? I can _search_ in my IDE's preferences for available keybindings and all kinds of other stuff.

zerr 11y ago

Well, then you have a GUI - menus/toolbars and after a couple of times use - you just remember the key binding usually specified along the label.

AnonymousPlanet 11y ago
I'm not talking about superficial usage like that. I'm talking about productivity boosts like multiline edits, line swapping, cursor jumping over blocks, and more advanced tricks. Also about where to do all those little tweaks to the configuration you need to google for or ask a coworker about to get a hold of. Those are not discoverable with any GUI.
- eitland 11y ago
  > ... Those are not discoverable with any GUI. But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while. Examples (Primarily Netbeans on Windows and Linux): Alt + shift + arrow -> move line(s) up/down or (de)indent. Ctrl + shift + arrow up/down -> duplicate line up and down etc. Most of you already know I guess but I guess there are always some who didn't realize that on Windows and Linux (desktops that is) you can mostly always rely on arrow -> move ctrl + arrow -> move one word at a time shift + arrow -> move while selecting and combined: ctrl-shift-arrow -> select whole words at a time --- While I can find my way around vim and have also given emacs an honest try for me it was not worth it. If typing speed becomes an issue for me it is a sign of a deeper problem ;-) That said I use a lot of multiline edits for database hacks, but what I really saves me some time and frustration when dealing with legacy code is * Really good refactoring support * ctrl-shift-d in Netbeans which brings up a stack of my latest cuts * regex search/replace in Netbeans. Yes, that means you can search for something(crazyregexgoeshere)(anotherregex) and replace with somethingelse-$1-$2 If anyone is interested I might try to compile an overview of some of my workflows (no promise though)
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    For Emacs: > ctrl-shift-d in Netbeans which brings up a stack of my latest cuts Eval (or bind yourself to a key): (popup-menu 'yank-menu) Also, the whole copy-paste infrastructure works with that "stack" ("kill ring" in Emacs speak), so you can easily paste previous cuts via pressing M-y after pasting (C-y). > regex search/replace in Netbeans. Yes, that means you can search for something(crazyregexgoeshere)(anotherregex) and replace with somethingelse-$1-$2 M-x regexp-replace; use \N instead of $N. Besides features related strictly to understanding of Java code semantics, it's unlikely Emacs doesn't have something Netbeans has :).
  - AnonymousPlanet 11y ago
    > But kind of easy-to-guess once you have used Windows for a while. Um, no. Just line swapping is different across IDEs. The same is true for other advanced editing moves. We're not merely talking about feature set Notepad or some random edit box has. For Emacs/Vim, the time investment to get from extendable editor to, say, a C++ IDE parity is greater than it is for a dedicated IDE. Personally, I use dedicated IDEs for where they shine (Java, C++, ...) and simple but powerful editors elsewhere. I love using Emacs for writing documentation because of all the advanced features it provides for text editing. So we're probably in the same boat on this. My point is that once you have gone beyond the initial setup and superficial use, becoming a proficient expert at the tool takes equal effort.
- cname 11y ago
  > Those are not discoverable with any GUI. Are you sure? I can _search_ in my IDE's preferences for available keybindings and all kinds of other stuff.