7 ms·

Yelp Hit With Class Action Lawsuit For Running An “Extortion Scheme”

90 points by apowell 17y ago

aresant 17y ago
Where there's smoke, there's fire - I think at this point Yelp is going to wind up paying out some bucks, but will likely refine their internal sales process.
- jeff18 17y ago
  "Where there's smoke, there's fire" That's the mantra of conspiracy theorists, UFO forums, and Bigfoot communities. Let's give Yelp the benefit of the doubt before we assume that they are illegally extorting small businesses based on no public evidence.
  - andrewljohnson 17y ago
    There is a lot of smoke here, and by smoke I mean business owners saying this is true and multiple law firms circling. This is getting ugly for Yelp.
    - alexyim 17y ago
      Just because there are accusations, doesn't mean that something is true. It's not like they have no ulterior motive for making accusations.
      - aresant 17y ago
        Absolutely. BUT tort-law firms do NOT lightly make decisions about where to allocate resources when being the FIRST to move in a class-related suit. Neither of the firms is huge or that well established, but I imagine that they have sufficiently compelling evidence in hand to proceed, and the point of doing a PR blitz like they’ve done is to find other pissed-off, potential clients which will only grow the pool of riches should they win.
CoachRufus87 17y ago
zing! should've taken that acquisition when they had the chance. "what's done in the dark eventually comes to light"
- jmtame 17y ago
  this is nothing new. google "yelp extortion".. has been going on for quite a while
- dpifke 17y ago
  For all we know, the fact that this lawsuit was coming could have come out during the acquisition talks and could be some or all of the reason they were called off. If the acquisition had gone through, this suit - regardless of merit - would have been a huge PR black eye for Google. Similar anger/distrust has been leveled at them by small businesses regarding search results placement and AdWords.
NEPatriot 17y ago
They have enough cash to beat out an animal hospital in a fight of attrition... Worst case they blame the one sales rep (this is not yelp company policy blah blah), pay up, and promise to play nice in the future.
- jonknee 17y ago
  Except the animal hospital isn't the only one who's made similar accusations. If lots of parties join the class action it could get expensive quickly.
vegashacker 17y ago
The allegations are demonstrably false, since many businesses that advertise on Yelp have both negative and positive reviews. I don't see how that demonstrates the allegations are false. It demonstrates that there must not have been an extortion scheme that every business paid into. Update: see mustpax's comment. Yelp is making a statement about businesses which have paid them.
- mustpax 17y ago
  since many businesses that advertise on Yelp They are talking about the business that have already "shelled out." They still have negative comments posted, so they can't be removing all of them by paying. Or, so claims Yelp.
  - vegashacker 17y ago
    Ah, I see. That makes a little more sense then.
- ellyagg 17y ago
  That, plus they obviously they wouldn't alter or remove all bad reviews. That would be brain-deadeningly obvious.
  - ryanhuff 17y ago
    I personally know of somebody who had their review deleted on Citysearch. She felt violated. If Citysearch does it, I wouldn't be surprised if their competitors do the same.
drunkpotato 17y ago
I've heard they treat their reviewers pretty badly, as well. Warning: this is anecdotal and only one reviewer. He was pressured to stop writing anything negative at all about certain restaurants until he quit reviewing for them altogether. If that is how they treat volunteer reviewers, I imagine it's worse for paid staff. In any case, I have enough bad feelings and stories about them to not trust anything Yelp publishes.
- jeff18 17y ago
  Everyone is a "volunteer reviewer" on Yelp. That's how the site works. If Yelp actually told this guy to stop writing reviews, he should post the email and it would be #1 on Hacker News, etc.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]
relme 17y ago
http://www.yelp.com/myths http://www.yelp.com/myths
- fnid2 17y ago
  Yes, that's a credible source.
jeff18 17y ago
Yelp does not need to extort people to be insanely successful. It would be a pretty bad move, given that if they did actually do this, someone could: a) Simply print out the email where Yelp explicitly extorted them. b) Record the phone call using Google Voice or whatever, where Yelp explicitly extorted them via the phone. c) Save the hardcopy of the letter or fax where Yelp mailed them the extortion offer. Those are the only ways Yelp communicates. It would be trivial for one of the millions of companies in Yelp's directory to blow the whistle with concrete evidence. Yelp, an extraordinarily valuable company, would be pretty much ruined overnight. Why would they run this risk to squeeze out a few extra bucks?
- jonknee 17y ago
  > Why would they run this risk to squeeze out a few extra bucks? You must not hang out with enough sales people. Companies do irrational things for short term gains all the time. See Wall Street for a recent example.
  - jeff18 17y ago
    That's not exactly my point. Yelp has many easy opportunities to be a shady company and raise its profit margins in ways that are 100% invisible. For example, they could claim that an ad impression got twice as many views as it actually did and there would be no way to call them on it other than a few internal potential whistleblowers. However, running a blatant extortion scheme where there is inherently a huge paper trail is not one of those things. Any one of the millions of businesses could become a whistleblower simply by posting an email to Hacker News, and Yelp would go from a near billion dollar company to a fraction of that. It saddens me that if someone accused my startup of doing something absolutely atrocious, illegal, and irrational, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, it looks like Hacker News would actually say "where there's smoke there's fire" and start to rationalize how I am likely guilty given zero evidence.
    - jonknee 17y ago
      > It saddens me that if someone accused my startup of doing something absolutely atrocious, illegal, and irrational, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, it looks like Hacker News would actually say "where there's smoke there's fire" and start to rationalize how I am likely guilty given zero evidence. It's not someone, it's hundreds of companies over a long period of time. Now a class action lawsuit. There are over 4 million hits for Yelp and scam on Google--this isn't a one-off accusation.
dpifke 17y ago
Yelp could do a itself a huge favor by becoming more transparent about its so-called "Review Filter." All it needs is a "show all" link somewhere on the page showing the supposedly suspicious reviews that were deleted by the filter, along with a list of reviews (maybe just the author name and/or first sentence) that were deleted by the author or by Yelp staff due to a TOS violation. Yelp claims editorial is completely uninfluenced by the sales team, businesses claim otherwise. Put the data out there and let people decide for themselves.
dasil003 17y ago
I'm curious about the law here. What is the threshold for extortion? Seems to me that despite Yelp being pretty shady, modifying the appearance of UGC on their site seems like it might not rise to the level of extortion. After all they are not writing these reviews or encouraging them in any way. We don't even necessarily know if they are deleting them or just reordering or what.
jonbishop 17y ago
I am a former Yelp Account Executive; I was one of the people that would call these businesses. I have both positive and negative feelings about Yelp. It was a short stint (November 07 to March 08) because I wasn't very good at the job as I hated the work (though the company itself is fantastic) and didn't believe in the product we were selling. Account Executives (and pretty sure everyone in the sales division all the way up to the VP of Sales) had no direct way of removing reviews (and I strongly believe this has not changed). When I was there, the only way for an Account Executive to have a review removed was to email customer service and provide a solid explanation as to why it violated the review guidelines. And I can tell you that many times it wasn't easy; customer service had strict guidelines to follow and I (and my friends) had plenty of arguments that went nowhere. Theoretically, an Account executive could make friends with a customer service rep or someone on the development team and try to persuade them to remove a review, but this is highly unlikely because if found out, everyone involved would be fired (so there's a huge risk) and I can tell you from personal experience, removing a few reviews is not going to make or break a sale (so it's not worth the risk). While it was a (sometimes extremely) frustrating process, I feel it speaks to how the executives of Yelp really do believe in the integrity of their review guidelines. As for reviews being deleted, I can tell you that in many of those instances, the review has been put in a "purgatory" where the system waits until it receives a signal that the review is not actually spam to let it surface back up to users. This happens to both positive and negative reviews; there is no scam going on here to hide negative reviews for businesses that pay and positive reviews for businesses that don't. Why isn't Yelp more transparent about this process and their algorithm? For the same reason Google isn't transparent about their algorithm - to prevent gaming the system. With the frequently repeated story of business owners being told that their negative reviews will be removed, I believe it comes down to a misunderstanding of the sales pitch (the majority of the time). One of the key points of the sales pitch involved moving a positive review to the top of the review order where a positive review would stay for the duration of the contract. This was especially effective for completing a sale if there was a negative review on top ("the first review your customers see will always be a positive one"). So if a business became a Yelp advertiser, the review order would change, but only with that one review that was moved to the very top. No reviews were deleted or otherwise manipulated. Why do I believe it's a misunderstanding on the business owner's part far more often than a mistaken or even purposeful effort by the Account Executive? For one, Yelp is pretty damn serious about their rep and will fire anyone caught doing this on purpose right away. Also, Yelp's training was good when I was there and has become phenomenal since I left so I don't see many mistakes happening. Finally, and I'm not going to butter this up, there are a LOT of business owners out there who don't understand the web and plenty who are just plain dumb (Just because you own a business, doesn't mean you should). the majority of businesses we called are one off restaurants/bars (just look at the majority of restaurant websites), little retail stores or one man service shops. Yelp is about the customer first and businesses second; because of this, there are always going to be business owners who feel screwed. With all that said, though, I feel that this latest lawsuit speaks to a huge problem that is only going to get bigger for Yelp as it gets closer to an IPO unless they significantly change their business pitch.
jrockway 17y ago
Even when they stop doing this, businesses will still get mad. They are mad that one bad employee can mistreat one customer, and the Whole Internet will hear about it (because Yelp is actually popular). The extortion claim is the only way to get Yelp into court. In the end, the local businesses will lose. And I think that's a good thing; they should hire good employees and provide good customer service! I'm glad that Yelp can make some money off their indifference.
- dan_the_welder 17y ago
  Well, on the other side of it. It only takes one bad customer having a bad day to shit all over your business. Some people are crazy and vindictive. Like the guy who reported me to the Consumer Product Safety Commission on fictitious grounds because I refused to be extorted.
martian 17y ago
As a general user, I love Yelp. But I also have friends who run retail stores, and they have reported feeling violated by the Yelp process, which suddenly has a very large say in the success or failure of the business. There is no "opt-in" option for retail stores, rather, those stores have to pay to "manage" their listing. If Yelp were opt-in rather than opt-out, I suspect they would have never had a lawsuit. (I know this would change a lot of Yelp's site, though, so not sure how feasible it'd be.)
- willwagner 17y ago
  Is there a way for a business to get themselves delisted from Yelp (either manually or in a robots.txt automated way)?
  - qeorge 17y ago
    I doubt it, and honestly I don't think there should be. Businesses can't be allowed to censor what is said about them at will. Yelp may be a flawed implementation, but the concept is sound.
- mothaiba 17y ago
  Yelp's doing a lot of us a favor by aggregating the conversation. Those conversations are happening elsewhere regardless. Is it all that different from what HN does?
gxs 17y ago
The article below was sumbitted to HN a while back- rather interesting. Backstory: The East Bay Express published a story criticizing Yelp and accusing them of extortion. Yelp CEO responds, criticizing the article's use of anonymous sources and general accusations. The article below is a response to the CEO's using named sources along with very specific accusations of what yelp did wrong. http://www.eastbayexpress.com/eastbay/yelp-extortion-allegations-stack-up/Content?oid=1176984 http://www.eastbayexpress.com/eastbay/yelp-extortion-allegat... *this is not the same article linked to in the OPs post.
sidbatra 17y ago
Perhaps, we should wait for Yelp to give their side of the story before hanging them a-priori. Perhaps a runaway sales account exec couldn't meet his/her targets and got cheeky.

90 points by apowell 17y ago

Where there's smoke, there's fire - I think at this point Yelp is going to wind up paying out some bucks, but will likely refine their internal sales process.

jeff18 17y ago
"Where there's smoke, there's fire" That's the mantra of conspiracy theorists, UFO forums, and Bigfoot communities. Let's give Yelp the benefit of the doubt before we assume that they are illegally extorting small businesses based on no public evidence.
- andrewljohnson 17y ago
  There is a lot of smoke here, and by smoke I mean business owners saying this is true and multiple law firms circling. This is getting ugly for Yelp.
  - alexyim 17y ago
    Just because there are accusations, doesn't mean that something is true. It's not like they have no ulterior motive for making accusations.
    - aresant 17y ago
      Absolutely. BUT tort-law firms do NOT lightly make decisions about where to allocate resources when being the FIRST to move in a class-related suit. Neither of the firms is huge or that well established, but I imagine that they have sufficiently compelling evidence in hand to proceed, and the point of doing a PR blitz like they’ve done is to find other pissed-off, potential clients which will only grow the pool of riches should they win.

CoachRufus87 17y ago

zing! should've taken that acquisition when they had the chance. "what's done in the dark eventually comes to light"

jmtame 17y ago
this is nothing new. google "yelp extortion".. has been going on for quite a while
dpifke 17y ago
For all we know, the fact that this lawsuit was coming could have come out during the acquisition talks and could be some or all of the reason they were called off. If the acquisition had gone through, this suit - regardless of merit - would have been a huge PR black eye for Google. Similar anger/distrust has been leveled at them by small businesses regarding search results placement and AdWords.

NEPatriot 17y ago

They have enough cash to beat out an animal hospital in a fight of attrition... Worst case they blame the one sales rep (this is not yelp company policy blah blah), pay up, and promise to play nice in the future.

jonknee 17y ago
Except the animal hospital isn't the only one who's made similar accusations. If lots of parties join the class action it could get expensive quickly.

vegashacker 17y ago

The allegations are demonstrably false, since many businesses that advertise on Yelp have both negative and positive reviews. I don't see how that demonstrates the allegations are false. It demonstrates that there must not have been an extortion scheme that every business paid into. Update: see mustpax's comment. Yelp is making a statement about businesses which have paid them.

mustpax 17y ago
since many businesses that advertise on Yelp They are talking about the business that have already "shelled out." They still have negative comments posted, so they can't be removing all of them by paying. Or, so claims Yelp.
- vegashacker 17y ago
  Ah, I see. That makes a little more sense then.
ellyagg 17y ago
That, plus they obviously they wouldn't alter or remove all bad reviews. That would be brain-deadeningly obvious.
- ryanhuff 17y ago
  I personally know of somebody who had their review deleted on Citysearch. She felt violated. If Citysearch does it, I wouldn't be surprised if their competitors do the same.

drunkpotato 17y ago

I've heard they treat their reviewers pretty badly, as well. Warning: this is anecdotal and only one reviewer. He was pressured to stop writing anything negative at all about certain restaurants until he quit reviewing for them altogether. If that is how they treat volunteer reviewers, I imagine it's worse for paid staff. In any case, I have enough bad feelings and stories about them to not trust anything Yelp publishes.

jeff18 17y ago
Everyone is a "volunteer reviewer" on Yelp. That's how the site works. If Yelp actually told this guy to stop writing reviews, he should post the email and it would be #1 on Hacker News, etc.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]

relme 17y ago

http://www.yelp.com/myths http://www.yelp.com/myths

fnid2 17y ago
Yes, that's a credible source.

jeff18 17y ago

Yelp does not need to extort people to be insanely successful. It would be a pretty bad move, given that if they did actually do this, someone could: a) Simply print out the email where Yelp explicitly extorted them. b) Record the phone call using Google Voice or whatever, where Yelp explicitly extorted them via the phone. c) Save the hardcopy of the letter or fax where Yelp mailed them the extortion offer. Those are the only ways Yelp communicates. It would be trivial for one of the millions of companies in Yelp's directory to blow the whistle with concrete evidence. Yelp, an extraordinarily valuable company, would be pretty much ruined overnight. Why would they run this risk to squeeze out a few extra bucks?

jonknee 17y ago
> Why would they run this risk to squeeze out a few extra bucks? You must not hang out with enough sales people. Companies do irrational things for short term gains all the time. See Wall Street for a recent example.
- jeff18 17y ago
  That's not exactly my point. Yelp has many easy opportunities to be a shady company and raise its profit margins in ways that are 100% invisible. For example, they could claim that an ad impression got twice as many views as it actually did and there would be no way to call them on it other than a few internal potential whistleblowers. However, running a blatant extortion scheme where there is inherently a huge paper trail is not one of those things. Any one of the millions of businesses could become a whistleblower simply by posting an email to Hacker News, and Yelp would go from a near billion dollar company to a fraction of that. It saddens me that if someone accused my startup of doing something absolutely atrocious, illegal, and irrational, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, it looks like Hacker News would actually say "where there's smoke there's fire" and start to rationalize how I am likely guilty given zero evidence.
  - jonknee 17y ago
    > It saddens me that if someone accused my startup of doing something absolutely atrocious, illegal, and irrational, instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt, it looks like Hacker News would actually say "where there's smoke there's fire" and start to rationalize how I am likely guilty given zero evidence. It's not someone, it's hundreds of companies over a long period of time. Now a class action lawsuit. There are over 4 million hits for Yelp and scam on Google--this isn't a one-off accusation.

dpifke 17y ago

Yelp could do a itself a huge favor by becoming more transparent about its so-called "Review Filter." All it needs is a "show all" link somewhere on the page showing the supposedly suspicious reviews that were deleted by the filter, along with a list of reviews (maybe just the author name and/or first sentence) that were deleted by the author or by Yelp staff due to a TOS violation. Yelp claims editorial is completely uninfluenced by the sales team, businesses claim otherwise. Put the data out there and let people decide for themselves.

dasil003 17y ago

I'm curious about the law here. What is the threshold for extortion? Seems to me that despite Yelp being pretty shady, modifying the appearance of UGC on their site seems like it might not rise to the level of extortion. After all they are not writing these reviews or encouraging them in any way. We don't even necessarily know if they are deleting them or just reordering or what.

jonbishop 17y ago

I am a former Yelp Account Executive; I was one of the people that would call these businesses. I have both positive and negative feelings about Yelp. It was a short stint (November 07 to March 08) because I wasn't very good at the job as I hated the work (though the company itself is fantastic) and didn't believe in the product we were selling. Account Executives (and pretty sure everyone in the sales division all the way up to the VP of Sales) had no direct way of removing reviews (and I strongly believe this has not changed). When I was there, the only way for an Account Executive to have a review removed was to email customer service and provide a solid explanation as to why it violated the review guidelines. And I can tell you that many times it wasn't easy; customer service had strict guidelines to follow and I (and my friends) had plenty of arguments that went nowhere. Theoretically, an Account executive could make friends with a customer service rep or someone on the development team and try to persuade them to remove a review, but this is highly unlikely because if found out, everyone involved would be fired (so there's a huge risk) and I can tell you from personal experience, removing a few reviews is not going to make or break a sale (so it's not worth the risk). While it was a (sometimes extremely) frustrating process, I feel it speaks to how the executives of Yelp really do believe in the integrity of their review guidelines. As for reviews being deleted, I can tell you that in many of those instances, the review has been put in a "purgatory" where the system waits until it receives a signal that the review is not actually spam to let it surface back up to users. This happens to both positive and negative reviews; there is no scam going on here to hide negative reviews for businesses that pay and positive reviews for businesses that don't. Why isn't Yelp more transparent about this process and their algorithm? For the same reason Google isn't transparent about their algorithm - to prevent gaming the system. With the frequently repeated story of business owners being told that their negative reviews will be removed, I believe it comes down to a misunderstanding of the sales pitch (the majority of the time). One of the key points of the sales pitch involved moving a positive review to the top of the review order where a positive review would stay for the duration of the contract. This was especially effective for completing a sale if there was a negative review on top ("the first review your customers see will always be a positive one"). So if a business became a Yelp advertiser, the review order would change, but only with that one review that was moved to the very top. No reviews were deleted or otherwise manipulated. Why do I believe it's a misunderstanding on the business owner's part far more often than a mistaken or even purposeful effort by the Account Executive? For one, Yelp is pretty damn serious about their rep and will fire anyone caught doing this on purpose right away. Also, Yelp's training was good when I was there and has become phenomenal since I left so I don't see many mistakes happening. Finally, and I'm not going to butter this up, there are a LOT of business owners out there who don't understand the web and plenty who are just plain dumb (Just because you own a business, doesn't mean you should). the majority of businesses we called are one off restaurants/bars (just look at the majority of restaurant websites), little retail stores or one man service shops. Yelp is about the customer first and businesses second; because of this, there are always going to be business owners who feel screwed. With all that said, though, I feel that this latest lawsuit speaks to a huge problem that is only going to get bigger for Yelp as it gets closer to an IPO unless they significantly change their business pitch.

jrockway 17y ago

Even when they stop doing this, businesses will still get mad. They are mad that one bad employee can mistreat one customer, and the Whole Internet will hear about it (because Yelp is actually popular). The extortion claim is the only way to get Yelp into court. In the end, the local businesses will lose. And I think that's a good thing; they should hire good employees and provide good customer service! I'm glad that Yelp can make some money off their indifference.

dan_the_welder 17y ago
Well, on the other side of it. It only takes one bad customer having a bad day to shit all over your business. Some people are crazy and vindictive. Like the guy who reported me to the Consumer Product Safety Commission on fictitious grounds because I refused to be extorted.

martian 17y ago

As a general user, I love Yelp. But I also have friends who run retail stores, and they have reported feeling violated by the Yelp process, which suddenly has a very large say in the success or failure of the business. There is no "opt-in" option for retail stores, rather, those stores have to pay to "manage" their listing. If Yelp were opt-in rather than opt-out, I suspect they would have never had a lawsuit. (I know this would change a lot of Yelp's site, though, so not sure how feasible it'd be.)

willwagner 17y ago
Is there a way for a business to get themselves delisted from Yelp (either manually or in a robots.txt automated way)?
- qeorge 17y ago
  I doubt it, and honestly I don't think there should be. Businesses can't be allowed to censor what is said about them at will. Yelp may be a flawed implementation, but the concept is sound.
mothaiba 17y ago
Yelp's doing a lot of us a favor by aggregating the conversation. Those conversations are happening elsewhere regardless. Is it all that different from what HN does?

gxs 17y ago

The article below was sumbitted to HN a while back- rather interesting. Backstory: The East Bay Express published a story criticizing Yelp and accusing them of extortion. Yelp CEO responds, criticizing the article's use of anonymous sources and general accusations. The article below is a response to the CEO's using named sources along with very specific accusations of what yelp did wrong. http://www.eastbayexpress.com/eastbay/yelp-extortion-allegations-stack-up/Content?oid=1176984 http://www.eastbayexpress.com/eastbay/yelp-extortion-allegat... *this is not the same article linked to in the OPs post.

sidbatra 17y ago

Perhaps, we should wait for Yelp to give their side of the story before hanging them a-priori. Perhaps a runaway sales account exec couldn't meet his/her targets and got cheeky.