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Yes, but Dallas fails abysmally on the urban livability and density test. It's one giant exurb. Much of it should be reclassified as a rural area. (Speaking as

Yes, but Dallas fails abysmally on the urban livability and density test. It's one giant exurb. Much of it should be reclassified as a rural area. (Speaking as an Atlantan -- we have the exact same problem.)

Cshelton 11y ago
Back in the 80's they pretty much highway-locked downtown (surrounded it with highways) and killed off a lot of the urban/livability. However much of that is changing/has changed. Downtown actually has people out at night. When you include Deep Ellum and Uptown (right next to downtown), though places are really active. I go out a lot at night...(too much) I'm not sure what your definition of "rural" is... but the suburbs of Dallas (Plano, Irving, Mckinney, Richardson) are most definitely not rural by any definition. Suburbs...yes...I'd even say dense suburbs at that.
JamilD 11y ago
I've only been to Dallas a couple times, but it seems like the soul of the city is in the suburbs. Downtown seems dreary and dismal; it has the potential to be exciting, it's quite a beautiful area — but so few people! Scattered coffee shops and restaurants, but I felt like I could've been literally anywhere else.
- abalashov 11y ago
  I felt like I could've been literally anywhere else. Bingo! That applies to 90% of Atlanta, as well, despite some notable exceptions.
Xcelerate 11y ago
Atlanta — a massive metro region with the emptiest downtown area I've ever lived in. It's a bit of a paradox.
- abalashov 11y ago
  Indeed! By global standards, it's completely preposterous. 5.5m people should be crammed into 1/10th of the surface area occupied by Metro Atlanta. At most. The downtown area is interesting, but has no imaginable relevance to the lives of 90% of Metro Atlanta residents.
- _delirium 11y ago
  If you want a "downtownish" area of Atlanta, Midtown is really the place to look, a little over a mile north of the official Downtown. It has a lot more residents and consistent pedestrian traffic. I lived there for a few years in the 2000s and it felt very bustling to me. I almost never drove anywhere either. Now, Downtown Atlanta is often crowded, but it's basically a giant convention center, so it depends on when there are conventions. There are approximately 10,000 hotel rooms within a few blocks of each other, so when it gets crowded it becomes very crowded .
  - abalashov 11y ago
    You're not Delirium from K5, are you?
    - _delirium 11y ago
      Hah, guilty as charged. I take it you're also an ex-kuron?
      - abalashov 11y ago
        Of course! Shoot me an email (in my profile).
eropple 11y ago
I think you've nailed it with regards to Atlanta--I quite like Atlanta and have a lot of friends there (when DragonCon rolls around I stay an extra 3-4 days on each side of it to hang out with my local friends too), and I'd love to move there except I would almost have to have a car. Dallas is a little different in that its suburbs are fairly dense, but you have to go there, and...car again. And, for me, life is way, way nicer without a car.
- zanny 11y ago
  My aunt and uncle live in Dallas, and I could imagine if I moved there I would just make sure to be near a Dart station. Like others have said, it is fairly comprehensive for a commuter rail line.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Maybe, but Plano, at least, looks like car country to me. I used to live on the end of one of the better commuter rail lines in the country. I still needed a car, and I hated it.
- abalashov 11y ago
  I lived in downtown-Midtown ATL without a car for several years, and currently reside in Midtown as well. We're a family of five, and drive maybe once a month. It is definitely possible, but you have to be extremely committed, make heavy use of on-demand/gig economy services, and incur considerable expense in structuring your life that way. I made (and make) a point of living near a MARTA station and other compromises many folks may not be willing to make. Wife + newborn + two stepkids in a 1200 sq. ft. 2 BR apartment is one of them--nothing terribly unusual by my native Eastern European standards, but probably stands out in America. For most people, the biggest problem would be commuting to work. Since I'm self-employed and can choose where to have an office (yes, I do have one), I have one within walking range.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Yeah, I get you. What you describe makes sense, from talking to friends who live there; only one friend of mine down that way seems to have any luck with that approach, and he lives in Buckhead and a lot of his Uber travel gets comped by his job. I really like the city, but I think any benefits I'd get from a cheaper area (because Boston is not cheap) would be drowned out by the need for a car or the expenses from not having one. MARTA's pretty nice though. I pinged you on Twitter, btw.
CalRobert 11y ago
Atlanta actually scored better than Detroit in this regard, but is still asphalt hellscape. http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/03/20/parking-madness-matchup-detroit-vs-atlanta/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/03/20/parking-madness-matchu... Of course, the bay is no exception. Here's the "city" of San Jose, and an explanation of how it might be fixed. http://usa.streetsblog.org/category/special-reports/parking-madness-2015/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/category/special-reports/parking-... Streetsblog's Parking Madness is an interesting tournament they run discussing cities that have been destroyed by parking craters. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I really think that when you have these levels of parking the city itself is gone, destroyed and replaced by suburb, or maybe some other human/auto organizational structure we need a new word for.

Cshelton 11y ago

Back in the 80's they pretty much highway-locked downtown (surrounded it with highways) and killed off a lot of the urban/livability. However much of that is changing/has changed. Downtown actually has people out at night. When you include Deep Ellum and Uptown (right next to downtown), though places are really active. I go out a lot at night...(too much) I'm not sure what your definition of "rural" is... but the suburbs of Dallas (Plano, Irving, Mckinney, Richardson) are most definitely not rural by any definition. Suburbs...yes...I'd even say dense suburbs at that.

JamilD 11y ago

I've only been to Dallas a couple times, but it seems like the soul of the city is in the suburbs. Downtown seems dreary and dismal; it has the potential to be exciting, it's quite a beautiful area — but so few people! Scattered coffee shops and restaurants, but I felt like I could've been literally anywhere else.

abalashov 11y ago
I felt like I could've been literally anywhere else. Bingo! That applies to 90% of Atlanta, as well, despite some notable exceptions.

Xcelerate 11y ago

Atlanta — a massive metro region with the emptiest downtown area I've ever lived in. It's a bit of a paradox.

abalashov 11y ago
Indeed! By global standards, it's completely preposterous. 5.5m people should be crammed into 1/10th of the surface area occupied by Metro Atlanta. At most. The downtown area is interesting, but has no imaginable relevance to the lives of 90% of Metro Atlanta residents.
_delirium 11y ago
If you want a "downtownish" area of Atlanta, Midtown is really the place to look, a little over a mile north of the official Downtown. It has a lot more residents and consistent pedestrian traffic. I lived there for a few years in the 2000s and it felt very bustling to me. I almost never drove anywhere either. Now, Downtown Atlanta is often crowded, but it's basically a giant convention center, so it depends on when there are conventions. There are approximately 10,000 hotel rooms within a few blocks of each other, so when it gets crowded it becomes very crowded .
- abalashov 11y ago
  You're not Delirium from K5, are you?
  - _delirium 11y ago
    Hah, guilty as charged. I take it you're also an ex-kuron?
    - abalashov 11y ago
      Of course! Shoot me an email (in my profile).

eropple 11y ago

I think you've nailed it with regards to Atlanta--I quite like Atlanta and have a lot of friends there (when DragonCon rolls around I stay an extra 3-4 days on each side of it to hang out with my local friends too), and I'd love to move there except I would almost have to have a car. Dallas is a little different in that its suburbs are fairly dense, but you have to go there, and...car again. And, for me, life is way, way nicer without a car.

zanny 11y ago
My aunt and uncle live in Dallas, and I could imagine if I moved there I would just make sure to be near a Dart station. Like others have said, it is fairly comprehensive for a commuter rail line.
- eropple 11y ago
  Maybe, but Plano, at least, looks like car country to me. I used to live on the end of one of the better commuter rail lines in the country. I still needed a car, and I hated it.
abalashov 11y ago
I lived in downtown-Midtown ATL without a car for several years, and currently reside in Midtown as well. We're a family of five, and drive maybe once a month. It is definitely possible, but you have to be extremely committed, make heavy use of on-demand/gig economy services, and incur considerable expense in structuring your life that way. I made (and make) a point of living near a MARTA station and other compromises many folks may not be willing to make. Wife + newborn + two stepkids in a 1200 sq. ft. 2 BR apartment is one of them--nothing terribly unusual by my native Eastern European standards, but probably stands out in America. For most people, the biggest problem would be commuting to work. Since I'm self-employed and can choose where to have an office (yes, I do have one), I have one within walking range.
- eropple 11y ago
  Yeah, I get you. What you describe makes sense, from talking to friends who live there; only one friend of mine down that way seems to have any luck with that approach, and he lives in Buckhead and a lot of his Uber travel gets comped by his job. I really like the city, but I think any benefits I'd get from a cheaper area (because Boston is not cheap) would be drowned out by the need for a car or the expenses from not having one. MARTA's pretty nice though. I pinged you on Twitter, btw.

CalRobert 11y ago

Atlanta actually scored better than Detroit in this regard, but is still asphalt hellscape. http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/03/20/parking-madness-matchup-detroit-vs-atlanta/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/03/20/parking-madness-matchu... Of course, the bay is no exception. Here's the "city" of San Jose, and an explanation of how it might be fixed. http://usa.streetsblog.org/category/special-reports/parking-madness-2015/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/category/special-reports/parking-... Streetsblog's Parking Madness is an interesting tournament they run discussing cities that have been destroyed by parking craters. I know a lot of people disagree with me but I really think that when you have these levels of parking the city itself is gone, destroyed and replaced by suburb, or maybe some other human/auto organizational structure we need a new word for.