6 ms·

Ha, you had me til the AI part. Personally I figure the musicians will have the last jobs, along with designers. Really artists generally speaking will be the m

Ha, you had me til the AI part. Personally I figure the musicians will have the last jobs, along with designers. Really artists generally speaking will be the most difficult AI, no?

stigi 11y ago
Modern pop music follows strict patterns. I have little doubt that much of what's playing in the top 40 can be synthesized or already is :P All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model.
- 6stringmerc 11y ago
  The only problem though with using a strict pattern system is that it will, I believe, more than likely miss the nuances which a brilliant songwriter can weave into a structure. The song might be 90% as good, which makes a lot of difference I think. Max Martin is an absolute genius in this regard, and his years of success reflect that. He's also a musician, though he is truly making his living as a songwriter/producer. Here's a great break-down of "Shake It Off" from a songwriting perspective, which kind of reveals the simplicity is deceptive in some ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8
  - foobarian 11y ago
    The other day I was listening to some random pop song (maybe Demi Lovato, not sure) and it was sounding eerily Max Martinesque. I go to look it up, and there he was in the credits. There is just something there that stands out; I don't know if it can be trained into an AI, but my money is on no.
    - 6stringmerc 11y ago
      One thing you might be subconsciously catching on to is that Max Martin is committed to "balanced lines" when it comes to vocals. It's obious in "Hit Me Baby One More Time" by Britney Spears and his fingerprints on "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry. Here's a great review and comment piece featuring 30 songs by Max Martin, in order to better study the guy's techniques which seem to work so well: http://www.stereogum.com/1788251/30-essential-max-martin-songs/franchises/ultimate-playlist/ http://www.stereogum.com/1788251/30-essential-max-martin-son... Also, I forgot to mention that the weird thing about music is that it follows trends just long enough to want a new one. Thus, whatever formula might win out for a period of time would likely be usurped by a variation or counter-intuitive trend. A funny thought in this line is that a hit-making, successful "Hair Metal Pop" AI would be going great until the "Grunge Rock Pop" AI started getting traction. Humans are fickle!
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  It does and it doesn't. The modern pop music that's most formulaic seems to be there mainly because then the managers can concentrate on promotions without worrying about what used to be known as A&R. As an Olde Phart(tm), what DJs do looks very much to me like "a human avatar" and aggregator.
- Animats 11y ago
  "All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model." Already in production. See Hatsune Miku in live concerts.[1][2] Not only is the performer an avatar, the singing is synthesized by Vocaloid software, which you can buy.[3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False [3] http://www.vocaloid.com/en/ http://www.vocaloid.com/en/
  - proksoup 11y ago
    Yup, just need to "synthesize" words and melodies as the gp said and you're set. "To create a song, the user must input the melody and lyrics".
- Animats 11y ago
  "All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model." Already in production. See Hatsune Miku in live concerts.[1][2] Not only is the performer an avatar, the singing is synthesized by Vocaloid software, which you can buy.[3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False [3] http://www.vocaloid.com/en/ http://www.vocaloid.com/en/
kmnc 11y ago
I imagine the goal posts will for ever be moving when it comes to defining what art is, but ultimately optimizing for human emotional sentiment does not seem that difficult a problem. Art is mostly just a combination of past works optimized for the modern audience. Seems like the perfect problem for AI. We often judge a future AI in terms of how well it could replicate current things but the real question is what happens after it perfects that replication? AlphaGo alone shows that the AI is likely to discover new styles that we failed to examine before, why can't the same happen with Art?
- williamcotton 11y ago
  Animats, kmnc... Do either of you write or play any music? What supports your arguments other than a few marketing op-ed pieces put out by Google in the last couple of year? You do realize that Google's self-driving cars and other AI research programs are mainly exercises in show business themselves, right? Well kudos to the people running public relations down in Mountain View, they've certainly convinced their target demographic that Google is the place to be for AI research! > AlphaGo alone shows that the AI is likely to discover new styles that we failed to examine before, why can't the same happen with Art? Because Go is a game with set of rules and clearly defined winner. Art has no rules and no winners and no losers. You can only program a computer, be it a neural network or some other machine learning algorithm, to deal with a finite set of inputs. Human oversight is still needed to set up and do the initial training of unsupervised learning algorithms and obviously needed during the entire process of supervised learning. The number of variables that go in to a music production are pretty astonishing. I'm guessing you have pretty much no experience with writing lyrics, melodies, counter melodies, arranging a song, playing the drums, playing the bass, playing any accompaniment, singing, recording, mixing, and then mastering. There's probably around a billion subtle variables that go in to what ends up being 4 minutes of a stereo recording. I would imagine it would take hundreds of thousands of man-hours just to train the initial complex neural network that could get anything that would spit something out that remotely sounded like the Beatle's Yesterday. Perhaps it wouldn't take as much effort to reproduce some plastic pop star, but you know what? People don't really like that shit. Kids do. For like 3 weeks. Then the plastic melts. You know what, this is basically pointless. You've made your mind up to remain ignorant about music. That's your prerogative. I'm safe in my knowledge that some genious in the Bay Area isn't going to be taking my job playing covers in a bar room any time soon. What, do you think a bunch of people sitting around in a dive bar want to watch a laptop sing them country music? But who knows, judging by how tasteless and uncultured most techies are, you guys would probably be fine with listening to the world's worst poetry, the world's worst instrumental lead, and the tackiest, lamest, emotionless expression of the inhuman condition a machine could possibly imagine. Why do AI zealots hate humanity so much? Are you ashamed of our past? Do you treat your parents and friends and family as ultimately replaceable by a machine? Art is much closer to the home and heart than you're realizing. I mean, it's you whose gonna end up driving real love away from your own life. I'm surrounded by a bunch of lovely morons who are fine with their shameful existence and are fine from spending the rest of their years being far from perfect and living side by side with misery and sin. You'd better get acquainted with reality at some point. You're still just a bag of flesh and bones with a set expiration date! Here's how I'm wasting away my remaining years: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153729538523439 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153729538523439 Rest in peace, Merle. It's a shame he never got around to learning about and writing about techies... although if you use your imagination his "Here In Frisco" is pretty damned close: It's four a.m. in New York City, three a.m. in Dallas The night is still early here in Frisco Market street's still going, the same old shows are showing And I'm still all alone here in Frisco They say it's raining in Chicago, but it's cold and clear in Denver Been windy all night long here in Frisco Trolley cars are clinging, the big Bay Town's swinging And I'm still all alone here in Frisco The way I feel tonight, I won't be staying long But when I leave, I'll leave my heart just like in the famous song Trolley cars are clinging, the big Bay Town's swinging And I'm still all alone here in Frisco And I'm still all alone here in Frisco --- Yup, and I'm still all alone here in Frisco, sitting around with my Artificial Love Machine and my Oculus VR wired directly in to the Google-Apple-Amazon mothership circling the earth... full-stack, full vertical integration, corporate assisted lifestyle... pumps me full of vitamins and movies made by computers. That this doesn't sound like the living embodiment of hell on earth, I don't know what the fuck does...
Disruptive_Dave 11y ago
These guys: https://www.jukedeck.com/ https://www.jukedeck.com/ There will come a point when one of the easiest ways to make money for a musician - sync licensing - is overtaken by computer generated tunes.
- proksoup 11y ago
  That's really interesting. They talk[1] about being able to automate it in the future but it seems like there may be a lot of human involvement still. That article goes further, that their goal is to be Instagram like, helping the unlearned make more professional sounding things. That doesn't seem more revolutionary than the Auto-Tune. [1] http://www.globaluniversityventuring.com/article.php/5136/jukedeck-remixes-music-composition http://www.globaluniversityventuring.com/article.php/5136/ju...
InclinedPlane 11y ago
Exactly. Music isn't algorithms, it's communication, it's emotional connection. You might be able to fake even that, but it's not going to be very good. The best and most potent music is stuff that connects to human experience. You're not going to get something like Adele's "Hello" or Pink Floyd's "The Wall" out of a computer until you get computers that are sentient and share the same experiences as humans. At which point they'll be people too anyway.

Ha, you had me til the AI part. Personally I figure the musicians will have the last jobs, along with designers. Really artists generally speaking will be the most difficult AI, no?

stigi 11y ago

Modern pop music follows strict patterns. I have little doubt that much of what's playing in the top 40 can be synthesized or already is :P All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model.

6stringmerc 11y ago
The only problem though with using a strict pattern system is that it will, I believe, more than likely miss the nuances which a brilliant songwriter can weave into a structure. The song might be 90% as good, which makes a lot of difference I think. Max Martin is an absolute genius in this regard, and his years of success reflect that. He's also a musician, though he is truly making his living as a songwriter/producer. Here's a great break-down of "Shake It Off" from a songwriting perspective, which kind of reveals the simplicity is deceptive in some ways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5EWn6s65o8
- foobarian 11y ago
  The other day I was listening to some random pop song (maybe Demi Lovato, not sure) and it was sounding eerily Max Martinesque. I go to look it up, and there he was in the credits. There is just something there that stands out; I don't know if it can be trained into an AI, but my money is on no.
  - 6stringmerc 11y ago
    One thing you might be subconsciously catching on to is that Max Martin is committed to "balanced lines" when it comes to vocals. It's obious in "Hit Me Baby One More Time" by Britney Spears and his fingerprints on "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry. Here's a great review and comment piece featuring 30 songs by Max Martin, in order to better study the guy's techniques which seem to work so well: http://www.stereogum.com/1788251/30-essential-max-martin-songs/franchises/ultimate-playlist/ http://www.stereogum.com/1788251/30-essential-max-martin-son... Also, I forgot to mention that the weird thing about music is that it follows trends just long enough to want a new one. Thus, whatever formula might win out for a period of time would likely be usurped by a variation or counter-intuitive trend. A funny thought in this line is that a hit-making, successful "Hair Metal Pop" AI would be going great until the "Grunge Rock Pop" AI started getting traction. Humans are fickle!
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
It does and it doesn't. The modern pop music that's most formulaic seems to be there mainly because then the managers can concentrate on promotions without worrying about what used to be known as A&R. As an Olde Phart(tm), what DJs do looks very much to me like "a human avatar" and aggregator.
Animats 11y ago
"All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model." Already in production. See Hatsune Miku in live concerts.[1][2] Not only is the performer an avatar, the singing is synthesized by Vocaloid software, which you can buy.[3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False [3] http://www.vocaloid.com/en/ http://www.vocaloid.com/en/
- proksoup 11y ago
  Yup, just need to "synthesize" words and melodies as the gp said and you're set. "To create a song, the user must input the melody and lyrics".
Animats 11y ago
"All that you need then is a human avatar that the kids can connect to and take as their role model." Already in production. See Hatsune Miku in live concerts.[1][2] Not only is the performer an avatar, the singing is synthesized by Vocaloid software, which you can buy.[3] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhYaX01NOfA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyTmXLWCazw&nohtml5=False [3] http://www.vocaloid.com/en/ http://www.vocaloid.com/en/

kmnc 11y ago

I imagine the goal posts will for ever be moving when it comes to defining what art is, but ultimately optimizing for human emotional sentiment does not seem that difficult a problem. Art is mostly just a combination of past works optimized for the modern audience. Seems like the perfect problem for AI. We often judge a future AI in terms of how well it could replicate current things but the real question is what happens after it perfects that replication? AlphaGo alone shows that the AI is likely to discover new styles that we failed to examine before, why can't the same happen with Art?

williamcotton 11y ago
Animats, kmnc... Do either of you write or play any music? What supports your arguments other than a few marketing op-ed pieces put out by Google in the last couple of year? You do realize that Google's self-driving cars and other AI research programs are mainly exercises in show business themselves, right? Well kudos to the people running public relations down in Mountain View, they've certainly convinced their target demographic that Google is the place to be for AI research! > AlphaGo alone shows that the AI is likely to discover new styles that we failed to examine before, why can't the same happen with Art? Because Go is a game with set of rules and clearly defined winner. Art has no rules and no winners and no losers. You can only program a computer, be it a neural network or some other machine learning algorithm, to deal with a finite set of inputs. Human oversight is still needed to set up and do the initial training of unsupervised learning algorithms and obviously needed during the entire process of supervised learning. The number of variables that go in to a music production are pretty astonishing. I'm guessing you have pretty much no experience with writing lyrics, melodies, counter melodies, arranging a song, playing the drums, playing the bass, playing any accompaniment, singing, recording, mixing, and then mastering. There's probably around a billion subtle variables that go in to what ends up being 4 minutes of a stereo recording. I would imagine it would take hundreds of thousands of man-hours just to train the initial complex neural network that could get anything that would spit something out that remotely sounded like the Beatle's Yesterday. Perhaps it wouldn't take as much effort to reproduce some plastic pop star, but you know what? People don't really like that shit. Kids do. For like 3 weeks. Then the plastic melts. You know what, this is basically pointless. You've made your mind up to remain ignorant about music. That's your prerogative. I'm safe in my knowledge that some genious in the Bay Area isn't going to be taking my job playing covers in a bar room any time soon. What, do you think a bunch of people sitting around in a dive bar want to watch a laptop sing them country music? But who knows, judging by how tasteless and uncultured most techies are, you guys would probably be fine with listening to the world's worst poetry, the world's worst instrumental lead, and the tackiest, lamest, emotionless expression of the inhuman condition a machine could possibly imagine. Why do AI zealots hate humanity so much? Are you ashamed of our past? Do you treat your parents and friends and family as ultimately replaceable by a machine? Art is much closer to the home and heart than you're realizing. I mean, it's you whose gonna end up driving real love away from your own life. I'm surrounded by a bunch of lovely morons who are fine with their shameful existence and are fine from spending the rest of their years being far from perfect and living side by side with misery and sin. You'd better get acquainted with reality at some point. You're still just a bag of flesh and bones with a set expiration date! Here's how I'm wasting away my remaining years: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153729538523439 https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153729538523439 Rest in peace, Merle. It's a shame he never got around to learning about and writing about techies... although if you use your imagination his "Here In Frisco" is pretty damned close: It's four a.m. in New York City, three a.m. in Dallas The night is still early here in Frisco Market street's still going, the same old shows are showing And I'm still all alone here in Frisco They say it's raining in Chicago, but it's cold and clear in Denver Been windy all night long here in Frisco Trolley cars are clinging, the big Bay Town's swinging And I'm still all alone here in Frisco The way I feel tonight, I won't be staying long But when I leave, I'll leave my heart just like in the famous song Trolley cars are clinging, the big Bay Town's swinging And I'm still all alone here in Frisco And I'm still all alone here in Frisco --- Yup, and I'm still all alone here in Frisco, sitting around with my Artificial Love Machine and my Oculus VR wired directly in to the Google-Apple-Amazon mothership circling the earth... full-stack, full vertical integration, corporate assisted lifestyle... pumps me full of vitamins and movies made by computers. That this doesn't sound like the living embodiment of hell on earth, I don't know what the fuck does...

Disruptive_Dave 11y ago

These guys: https://www.jukedeck.com/ https://www.jukedeck.com/ There will come a point when one of the easiest ways to make money for a musician - sync licensing - is overtaken by computer generated tunes.

proksoup 11y ago
That's really interesting. They talk[1] about being able to automate it in the future but it seems like there may be a lot of human involvement still. That article goes further, that their goal is to be Instagram like, helping the unlearned make more professional sounding things. That doesn't seem more revolutionary than the Auto-Tune. [1] http://www.globaluniversityventuring.com/article.php/5136/jukedeck-remixes-music-composition http://www.globaluniversityventuring.com/article.php/5136/ju...

InclinedPlane 11y ago

Exactly. Music isn't algorithms, it's communication, it's emotional connection. You might be able to fake even that, but it's not going to be very good. The best and most potent music is stuff that connects to human experience. You're not going to get something like Adele's "Hello" or Pink Floyd's "The Wall" out of a computer until you get computers that are sentient and share the same experiences as humans. At which point they'll be people too anyway.