6 ms·

So a porn website (by far, the most effective mean to objectify women) is protesting a law that adds a new layer of social pressure towards women and girls. I d

So a porn website (by far, the most effective mean to objectify women) is protesting a law that adds a new layer of social pressure towards women and girls. I don't see men having a problem with women entering mens room. But I do see women feeling uncomfortable with a man entering woman's room. No matter how far will the theory of subjective gender go, it will take decades, if ever, until women and men will simply ignore physical gender. If that will ever happen. My concern is two fold. One, for transgender persons, who will fear the reaction they will get every time they enter the restroom. And second, basically any person can claim to be of the opposite gender, and walk in to fulfill a sexual fantasy, even a mild one. I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender, and simply avoid the psychological conflict with the rest of the population. Especially considering the high rates of mental illness and suicidal thoughts and attempts among transgender persons. This, for now, will only add to that. Do they really need to be subjects in a future study that will show the impact of such laws? Or used as ammunition for 'transphobia' accusations in the media or elsewhere? Will the victims of the first line in the war of imposing a policy in the society be really worth it, especially if that increases their chances of committing suicide?

libeclipse 11y ago
I concur.
coldpie 11y ago
> I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender, and simply avoid the psychological conflict with the rest of the population. I suspect you haven't really been paying attention and are just submitting your gut feeling here. For example, in attempting to prevent your hypothetical "sexual fantasy" scenario, here's one real consequence of this law: https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144 https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144 The simple fact is any real problems caused in bathrooms are already covered by harassment laws. These new laws take away a freedom people already had, and I'm not really aware of any real problems caused by people having those freedoms. Are you? What problems have these laws solved? Hypothetical situations don't count.
- return0 11y ago
  That tweet espouses way more stereotypes than it's supposed to mock.
  - abiox 11y ago
    Care to elaborate?
    - return0 11y ago
      That a man entering a women's restroom is something to be feared of (!), that a woman's loyalty depends on somebody shielding her from strange men and that a husband's duty is to shield her By the same logic, mixed restrooms are dangerous.
      - abiox 11y ago
        this is the stance of the legislators. the point is to show they're fully in the "good intentions paving the road to hell" mode. they didn't want dudes in the ladies' room, so now they have dudes in the ladies' room.
        return0 11y ago
        I believe it's women who are more concerned about this than men.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
webbore 11y ago
If your establishment is big enough to have multiple person facilities, you can add a single bathroom as well. Even smaller restaurants seem to have a individual handicap or family washroom. Then label it "toilet" and who cares who uses it. The whole "men identifying as women in the washroom with little girls" thing is a big red herring rally cry for a very vocal group (based on a single case of a male pedophile who did not id as a woman). So raising headlines against this, regardless if it's judged appropriate, is good as far as I'm concerned.
mikeash 11y ago
What is "physical gender"? If a person looks like a man, acts like a man, and thinks of themselves as a man, do women really want this person in the women's bathroom just because they were born with two X chromosomes? How can such a person "simply avoid the psychological conflict" when a law mandates their choice of bathroom based on their genes? The bathroom of least conflict is illegal for them to enter!
- theoh 11y ago
  This is a totally confused issue. The popular Reddit forum for women calls itself "TwoXChromosomes" but also disallows transphobia. Now, in some people's books, even this equation of having two X chromosomes with being a woman is reductively cisnormative or transphobic. As gender reassignment doesn't affect genetics, I think the fairest interpretation is to consider that we just aren't there yet in terms of the biology of gender reassignment. But even stating this is unacceptable to some.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    What makes that the fairest interpretation? There are trans people who look and act just like the gender they identify with. Letting them use the bathroom of the gender they identify with makes the most sense to me, not only for them, but for everyone else. Saying that genetics are what really matter and you have to use the bathroom determined by your chromosomes just seem lazy, not fair.
    - theoh 11y ago
      I'm not talking about the bathroom issue, but responding to your question about physical gender. I'm in favour of permissive laws about this and similar scenarios. The bigger problem here is things like so-called TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminism) in which high profile feminists who display contempt for transgender people are unfairly lumped in with innocent people who are merely aware of the limitations of current medicine. That discussion (the TERF discussion) is a painful one to engage with. But maybe bringing that problem up is a non-sequitur.
ryandamm 11y ago
I'm torn, because I don't really want to dignify this comment with a response... but here goes. Your 'concern' for trans* people is transparently false, or at least misguided. I don't see how allowing someone to live with their gender identity is 'adding stress' to them: outing someone's trans status by forcing them legally to use the wrong restroom is... itself insane, and in no way 'protects' trans people. But if you're arguing in bad faith, and are not merely confused... well, please don't try to wrap this up as an issue of concern for trans people; the law compels, it takes away liberty. Claiming it's somehow in trans* people's interests is about 50-100 years out of date: you don't protect people by taking away their rights! That's paternalistic and wrong. And somehow suggesting that the freedom to choose the bathroom of your gender is making people commit suicide... that's your argument, right? Well, I just hope you're being facetious and I'm missing the irony.
pigpaws 11y ago
Isn't Washington State (or Seattle) having an issue with this? Men (who are not trans) going into and using the ladies' room? In the end, you're leaving it up to the person's "feelings" as to where to use the restroom. Hell, I belong to a gym that has a separate section for women only. How would most women feel if a trans* walked in and started 'working out'? While I have to agree with individual liberty - live however you want, the question remains how to effectively force other people to accept it, because thats what is going on. This is all based on the theory that men are sex-crazed pigs anyway. What's wrong with uni-sex restrooms anyway?
- coldpie 11y ago
  > Isn't Washington State (or Seattle) having an issue with this? Men (who are not trans) going into and using the ladies' room? No.
  - pigpaws 11y ago
    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/states-rules-for-transgender-restroom-access-set-off-debate/ http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/states-rul... http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/washington-state-opens-womens-bathrooms-to-men/ http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/washington-state-opens-womens-bat... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathro...
tryitnow 11y ago
You're assuming people know what type of genitalia other people in the restroom have. I don't understand the type of restrooms you use. When I use the restroom I do not inspect the genitalia of my fellow men. I'm pretty sure women don't do that either. If this is happening in the restroom you utilize you need to find other restrooms. Under your rules someone who looks, acts, and dresses like a man will be forced (by law!) to use the women's restroom. This actually causes all of the problems you mention. I do not understand your reasoning.
jmcgough 11y ago
"I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender" Fun story time: I went to the Santa Cruz boardwalk a few months back with some friends. It was packed and the line for the woman's restroom was massive, so I figured I looked androgynous enough in jeans and a black tshirt that I could get away with using the men's room. The whispers started immediately after I made it to a stall. "Whoah, did you see that? There's a girl in here!" Now, by your definition I was using the restroom appropriate to my physical gender (since you seem fixated on genitals or genes or something). I'm also a tiny 5'5" thing and transitioned a decade ago in my teens (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cfx0a8fUAAAfsoW.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cfx0a8fUAAAfsoW.jpg). These men were twice my size, and I was mortified and a little scared. I did my business and got the hell out. It was a lovely day at the beach other than that. Anyways, if I lived in NC, I have no idea where I would actually use a restroom if I was out in public. Is that not insane? Why should a bunch of conservative men be able to pass a law and restrict a basic bodily function that we all need to deal with? I'd be stuck having to find gender neutral bathrooms where I could.
pavel_lishin 11y ago
> My concern is two fold. One, for transgender persons, who will fear the reaction they will get every time they enter the restroom. I'd wager that most transgender people who use the bathroom they wish to use are already dressing, acting, and mostly passing for their gender. It's not a tall woman in a skirt walking into the men's room, nor someone with a full beard walking into a women's room. And I'd also wager that the reaction they get when walking into the wrong bathroom is probably much, much worse to deal with on a daily basis.
abiox 11y ago
> So a porn website (by far, the most effective mean to objectify women) i find this phrasing to be curious. perhaps you're only suggesting that it "objectifies women". well, sure - but it also objectifies men. rarely are the chaps more than grunting and thrusting animalistic instruments of sex, are they? i think it's a valuable thing to be aware of objectification and whether we're treating any givern person with consideration, but at the same time, "objectification" isn't some objectively (!) negative abstract bogeyman. > But I do see women feeling uncomfortable with a man entering woman's room. should a female-to-male transgendered person, dressed and groomed and to most people's eye a seeming "biological man" - potentially with facial hair, even - be forced to use the women's room? would this not cause the same discomfort you describe? > And second, basically any person can claim to be of the opposite gender, and walk in to fulfill a sexual fantasy, even a mild one. i think fear mongering using unclear, disembodied "sexual fantasy" isn't all that productive of a conversation. it's about on par with "won't someone think of the children?" > I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender, and simply avoid the psychological conflict with the rest of the population. not sure i follow - you're saying that someone like Buck Angel[1] would be more comfortable using the women's restroom? that any women in said restroom wouldn't be wondering why a man was in there? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel

libeclipse 11y ago

I concur.

coldpie 11y ago

> I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender, and simply avoid the psychological conflict with the rest of the population. I suspect you haven't really been paying attention and are just submitting your gut feeling here. For example, in attempting to prevent your hypothetical "sexual fantasy" scenario, here's one real consequence of this law: https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144 https://twitter.com/JayShef/status/712845760287494144 The simple fact is any real problems caused in bathrooms are already covered by harassment laws. These new laws take away a freedom people already had, and I'm not really aware of any real problems caused by people having those freedoms. Are you? What problems have these laws solved? Hypothetical situations don't count.

return0 11y ago
That tweet espouses way more stereotypes than it's supposed to mock.
- abiox 11y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  - return0 11y ago
    That a man entering a women's restroom is something to be feared of (!), that a woman's loyalty depends on somebody shielding her from strange men and that a husband's duty is to shield her By the same logic, mixed restrooms are dangerous.
    - abiox 11y ago
      this is the stance of the legislators. the point is to show they're fully in the "good intentions paving the road to hell" mode. they didn't want dudes in the ladies' room, so now they have dudes in the ladies' room.
      - return0 11y ago
        I believe it's women who are more concerned about this than men.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

webbore 11y ago

If your establishment is big enough to have multiple person facilities, you can add a single bathroom as well. Even smaller restaurants seem to have a individual handicap or family washroom. Then label it "toilet" and who cares who uses it. The whole "men identifying as women in the washroom with little girls" thing is a big red herring rally cry for a very vocal group (based on a single case of a male pedophile who did not id as a woman). So raising headlines against this, regardless if it's judged appropriate, is good as far as I'm concerned.

mikeash 11y ago

What is "physical gender"? If a person looks like a man, acts like a man, and thinks of themselves as a man, do women really want this person in the women's bathroom just because they were born with two X chromosomes? How can such a person "simply avoid the psychological conflict" when a law mandates their choice of bathroom based on their genes? The bathroom of least conflict is illegal for them to enter!

theoh 11y ago
This is a totally confused issue. The popular Reddit forum for women calls itself "TwoXChromosomes" but also disallows transphobia. Now, in some people's books, even this equation of having two X chromosomes with being a woman is reductively cisnormative or transphobic. As gender reassignment doesn't affect genetics, I think the fairest interpretation is to consider that we just aren't there yet in terms of the biology of gender reassignment. But even stating this is unacceptable to some.
- mikeash 11y ago
  What makes that the fairest interpretation? There are trans people who look and act just like the gender they identify with. Letting them use the bathroom of the gender they identify with makes the most sense to me, not only for them, but for everyone else. Saying that genetics are what really matter and you have to use the bathroom determined by your chromosomes just seem lazy, not fair.
  - theoh 11y ago
    I'm not talking about the bathroom issue, but responding to your question about physical gender. I'm in favour of permissive laws about this and similar scenarios. The bigger problem here is things like so-called TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminism) in which high profile feminists who display contempt for transgender people are unfairly lumped in with innocent people who are merely aware of the limitations of current medicine. That discussion (the TERF discussion) is a painful one to engage with. But maybe bringing that problem up is a non-sequitur.

ryandamm 11y ago

I'm torn, because I don't really want to dignify this comment with a response... but here goes. Your 'concern' for trans* people is transparently false, or at least misguided. I don't see how allowing someone to live with their gender identity is 'adding stress' to them: outing someone's trans status by forcing them legally to use the wrong restroom is... itself insane, and in no way 'protects' trans people. But if you're arguing in bad faith, and are not merely confused... well, please don't try to wrap this up as an issue of concern for trans people; the law compels, it takes away liberty. Claiming it's somehow in trans* people's interests is about 50-100 years out of date: you don't protect people by taking away their rights! That's paternalistic and wrong. And somehow suggesting that the freedom to choose the bathroom of your gender is making people commit suicide... that's your argument, right? Well, I just hope you're being facetious and I'm missing the irony.

pigpaws 11y ago

Isn't Washington State (or Seattle) having an issue with this? Men (who are not trans) going into and using the ladies' room? In the end, you're leaving it up to the person's "feelings" as to where to use the restroom. Hell, I belong to a gym that has a separate section for women only. How would most women feel if a trans* walked in and started 'working out'? While I have to agree with individual liberty - live however you want, the question remains how to effectively force other people to accept it, because thats what is going on. This is all based on the theory that men are sex-crazed pigs anyway. What's wrong with uni-sex restrooms anyway?

coldpie 11y ago
> Isn't Washington State (or Seattle) having an issue with this? Men (who are not trans) going into and using the ladies' room? No.
- pigpaws 11y ago
  http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/states-rules-for-transgender-restroom-access-set-off-debate/ http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/states-rul... http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/washington-state-opens-womens-bathrooms-to-men/ http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/washington-state-opens-womens-bat... http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathroom-test-transgender-ruling-article-1.2535150 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/wa-man-women-bathro...

tryitnow 11y ago

You're assuming people know what type of genitalia other people in the restroom have. I don't understand the type of restrooms you use. When I use the restroom I do not inspect the genitalia of my fellow men. I'm pretty sure women don't do that either. If this is happening in the restroom you utilize you need to find other restrooms. Under your rules someone who looks, acts, and dresses like a man will be forced (by law!) to use the women's restroom. This actually causes all of the problems you mention. I do not understand your reasoning.

jmcgough 11y ago

"I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender" Fun story time: I went to the Santa Cruz boardwalk a few months back with some friends. It was packed and the line for the woman's restroom was massive, so I figured I looked androgynous enough in jeans and a black tshirt that I could get away with using the men's room. The whispers started immediately after I made it to a stall. "Whoah, did you see that? There's a girl in here!" Now, by your definition I was using the restroom appropriate to my physical gender (since you seem fixated on genitals or genes or something). I'm also a tiny 5'5" thing and transitioned a decade ago in my teens (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cfx0a8fUAAAfsoW.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cfx0a8fUAAAfsoW.jpg). These men were twice my size, and I was mortified and a little scared. I did my business and got the hell out. It was a lovely day at the beach other than that. Anyways, if I lived in NC, I have no idea where I would actually use a restroom if I was out in public. Is that not insane? Why should a bunch of conservative men be able to pass a law and restrict a basic bodily function that we all need to deal with? I'd be stuck having to find gender neutral bathrooms where I could.

pavel_lishin 11y ago

> My concern is two fold. One, for transgender persons, who will fear the reaction they will get every time they enter the restroom. I'd wager that most transgender people who use the bathroom they wish to use are already dressing, acting, and mostly passing for their gender. It's not a tall woman in a skirt walking into the men's room, nor someone with a full beard walking into a women's room. And I'd also wager that the reaction they get when walking into the wrong bathroom is probably much, much worse to deal with on a daily basis.

abiox 11y ago

> So a porn website (by far, the most effective mean to objectify women) i find this phrasing to be curious. perhaps you're only suggesting that it "objectifies women". well, sure - but it also objectifies men. rarely are the chaps more than grunting and thrusting animalistic instruments of sex, are they? i think it's a valuable thing to be aware of objectification and whether we're treating any givern person with consideration, but at the same time, "objectification" isn't some objectively (!) negative abstract bogeyman. > But I do see women feeling uncomfortable with a man entering woman's room. should a female-to-male transgendered person, dressed and groomed and to most people's eye a seeming "biological man" - potentially with facial hair, even - be forced to use the women's room? would this not cause the same discomfort you describe? > And second, basically any person can claim to be of the opposite gender, and walk in to fulfill a sexual fantasy, even a mild one. i think fear mongering using unclear, disembodied "sexual fantasy" isn't all that productive of a conversation. it's about on par with "won't someone think of the children?" > I simply don't understand what is the huge effort in using the restroom appropriate to your physical gender, and simply avoid the psychological conflict with the rest of the population. not sure i follow - you're saying that someone like Buck Angel[1] would be more comfortable using the women's restroom? that any women in said restroom wouldn't be wondering why a man was in there? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel