6 ms·

(This is not an operating system.)

by nxzero 11y ago

js8 11y ago
For lack of a better word, yes! You're taking it too literally - if I wrote something else, then I couldn't make a subtle reference to Emacs. I wish this project success, and if it will be successful, it will no doubt evolve into having it's own scripting language and other things. Basically, it will become "operating system" like Emacs. PS. It's unfortunate that people here downvote for misunderstanding a common reference.
- gjm11 11y ago
  > It's unfortunate that people here downvote for misunderstanding a common reference. No, people here downvote for saying things that don't actually add to the conversation. "Hey, I know an old joke about Emacs!" doesn't add anything to the conversation here. (Voltron is not particularly Emacs-like; its readme says in its second paragraph that it "doesn't aim to be everything to everyone"; it's not a thing anyone is going to spend all their time in; the parallels it would take to make the reference apposite really aren't there.) Also, I think you botched the joke; "... but it seems to lack a decent debugger" would have fitted the pattern better. (But it still wouldn't have been either very funny or very insightful.) Oh, and I downvoted your second comment for complaining about being downvoted; I have a policy of always downvoting waah-I-was-downvoted comments when I see them. (Unless what they're complaining about is a very clear injustice, which it isn't here.)
  - js8 11y ago
    Actually, I didn't botch the joke - it was you who missed the subtle point I was making. I think that, paradoxically, this may evolve eventually to more complete (operating) system with an editor, just like Emacs has a debugger. That's why I asked the question, and made a clarification (which unfortunately killed the reason for being subtle) - your "doesn't add anything to the conversation" missed the point! (Actually, downvoting without a comment doesn't addd anything to the conversation either.)
    - sp332 11y ago
      It looks like your original post doesn't actually say any of those things. There's a line between subtle and uncommunicative.
      - js8 11y ago
        I think the 1st does, if you're willing to entertain the idea that it's not just the old joke about Emacs. The 2nd one actually explains it quite well. In any case, I think that downvoting without a comment crosses that line too. Sadly, the only guy who was willing to explain his disagreement with my original comment got downvoted too.
        scrollaway 11y ago
        > I think that downvoting without a comment crosses that line too You're not being "downvoted without comments". gjm11 has made the effort of explaining to you why he's downvoting you. Expect a lot of people to feel the same way. Your comment was unnecessary, unjustified, insulting and you're still defending it. Don't be surprised.
        js8 11y ago
        I wonder what you think was insulting in it? I was not particularly defending it, merely explaining the original intent; I don't see any insult in it. (Actually I wish people would discuss the valid point I made, as marssaxman did below, rather than the segway.) gjm11 explained his downvote, but after I asked. He was also downvoted (temporarily) for some reason.. I don't understand why calm debate about why something was downvoted is a source of so much emotions, that people have to downvote it as well. It makes me unhappy when people downvote without commenting, because it doesn't add to a discussion either.
- marssaxman 11y ago
  Why on earth would this project evolve in such a way? I don't see what would push it in that direction, so I don't understand why it strikes you as an inevitability.
  - js8 11y ago
    (Assuming here a very successful project.) It's simple - people will want scripting. That's where it will start. Once you have scripting, mods will come - useful things like integration plugins for languages, for instance. Then you will need parameter and configuration system, for things like keyboard shortcuts and themes. Then will come its own packaging system for those mods. Eventually, it will evolve into a complete ecosystem on its own. It happened with every bigger IDE out there, and they are much less hackable than this purports to be. All this is just a consequence of making system hackable.
    - marssaxman 11y ago
      Is there any type of project for which this would not be true?
      - js8 11y ago
        I can't think of any example. Maybe some other sort of software than the ones for programmers, say, graphic editors - there are some that are pretty hackable but they aren't being hacked too much despite having users. That's why it's so striking, that the developers here seem to declare to fight this "almost a natural law". They want something hackable, yet they want the thing to have very specific purpose, but I think, if it will succeed, it will take life on its own. I think they should plan for it and embrace it, instead.

(This is not an operating system.)

by nxzero 11y ago

(This is not an operating system.)

js8 11y ago

For lack of a better word, yes! You're taking it too literally - if I wrote something else, then I couldn't make a subtle reference to Emacs. I wish this project success, and if it will be successful, it will no doubt evolve into having it's own scripting language and other things. Basically, it will become "operating system" like Emacs. PS. It's unfortunate that people here downvote for misunderstanding a common reference.

gjm11 11y ago
> It's unfortunate that people here downvote for misunderstanding a common reference. No, people here downvote for saying things that don't actually add to the conversation. "Hey, I know an old joke about Emacs!" doesn't add anything to the conversation here. (Voltron is not particularly Emacs-like; its readme says in its second paragraph that it "doesn't aim to be everything to everyone"; it's not a thing anyone is going to spend all their time in; the parallels it would take to make the reference apposite really aren't there.) Also, I think you botched the joke; "... but it seems to lack a decent debugger" would have fitted the pattern better. (But it still wouldn't have been either very funny or very insightful.) Oh, and I downvoted your second comment for complaining about being downvoted; I have a policy of always downvoting waah-I-was-downvoted comments when I see them. (Unless what they're complaining about is a very clear injustice, which it isn't here.)
- js8 11y ago
  Actually, I didn't botch the joke - it was you who missed the subtle point I was making. I think that, paradoxically, this may evolve eventually to more complete (operating) system with an editor, just like Emacs has a debugger. That's why I asked the question, and made a clarification (which unfortunately killed the reason for being subtle) - your "doesn't add anything to the conversation" missed the point! (Actually, downvoting without a comment doesn't addd anything to the conversation either.)
  - sp332 11y ago
    It looks like your original post doesn't actually say any of those things. There's a line between subtle and uncommunicative.
    - js8 11y ago
      I think the 1st does, if you're willing to entertain the idea that it's not just the old joke about Emacs. The 2nd one actually explains it quite well. In any case, I think that downvoting without a comment crosses that line too. Sadly, the only guy who was willing to explain his disagreement with my original comment got downvoted too.
      - scrollaway 11y ago
        > I think that downvoting without a comment crosses that line too You're not being "downvoted without comments". gjm11 has made the effort of explaining to you why he's downvoting you. Expect a lot of people to feel the same way. Your comment was unnecessary, unjustified, insulting and you're still defending it. Don't be surprised.
        js8 11y ago
        I wonder what you think was insulting in it? I was not particularly defending it, merely explaining the original intent; I don't see any insult in it. (Actually I wish people would discuss the valid point I made, as marssaxman did below, rather than the segway.) gjm11 explained his downvote, but after I asked. He was also downvoted (temporarily) for some reason.. I don't understand why calm debate about why something was downvoted is a source of so much emotions, that people have to downvote it as well. It makes me unhappy when people downvote without commenting, because it doesn't add to a discussion either.
marssaxman 11y ago
Why on earth would this project evolve in such a way? I don't see what would push it in that direction, so I don't understand why it strikes you as an inevitability.
- js8 11y ago
  (Assuming here a very successful project.) It's simple - people will want scripting. That's where it will start. Once you have scripting, mods will come - useful things like integration plugins for languages, for instance. Then you will need parameter and configuration system, for things like keyboard shortcuts and themes. Then will come its own packaging system for those mods. Eventually, it will evolve into a complete ecosystem on its own. It happened with every bigger IDE out there, and they are much less hackable than this purports to be. All this is just a consequence of making system hackable.
  - marssaxman 11y ago
    Is there any type of project for which this would not be true?
    - js8 11y ago
      I can't think of any example. Maybe some other sort of software than the ones for programmers, say, graphic editors - there are some that are pretty hackable but they aren't being hacked too much despite having users. That's why it's so striking, that the developers here seem to declare to fight this "almost a natural law". They want something hackable, yet they want the thing to have very specific purpose, but I think, if it will succeed, it will take life on its own. I think they should plan for it and embrace it, instead.