3 ms·

> This is common with LSD trips and other such experiences. What other experiences? > The very first line in the Tao Te Ching is "The Tao that can be spoken i

> This is common with LSD trips and other such experiences. What other experiences? > The very first line in the Tao Te Ching is "The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao." Some things are ineffable. So you're saying the parent commenter was made aware of the Tao? Or that it was a religious experience? I don't follow. > For instance, it's not possible to explain the experience of the color red to a blind person. That's bogus. You're likening abstinence from LSD to a disability. > Unless your brain has time travel capabilities, your experience of the past is just replaying memories and the future is just simulations of potential paths. I didn't say anything about time travel. My point was it's a bit concerning that somebody would refer to their past and future as "trivial and not important." You mentioned using knowledge of the past to plan the future. That suggests you agree that the past and future are connected and important.

rosser 11y ago
> So you're saying the parent commenter was made aware of the Tao? No, he's saying, "Some things are ineffable." — in exactly so many words. There are experiences we can have that simply can not be articulated in something as clumsy and imprecise as language. The same word can mean subtly different things to the parties of a single conversation, and this kind of thing is pretty much all subtlety. The experiences you can have working with psychedelics are among the most, "You really had to be there," things possible, for values of "there" that generally taken to mean, "inside the same skull".
- superswordfish 11y ago
  But we're humans and our foremost means of communication is language. Who cares if it's clumsy and imprecise? Try us, it's the best we've got. Saying it's ineffable is lazy. Unless you're talking about the centerpiece of your religion, I suppose, so I thought parent was suggesting that this person had stumbled upon the Tao. Edit: My comments are getting hammered into oblivion, forbid somebody should try to hold something up to the light and expect an answer other than "you have to use psychedelics to get it." Maybe it's bad to care about objectivity when in the company of psychonauts? Sorry, but I have a hard time distinguishing what I read here from a host of other woo, and I'm left with questions, not answers. My questions are not meant to be dismissive in any way, but they are deliberately prying.
  - colordrops 11y ago
    Perhaps that is your answer - that you will only be left with questions until you experience one of these states firsthand.
  - nostalgiac 11y ago
    It's not lazy to say something such as an LSD trip is ineffable. It's just how it is. Sure a lot of the sounds, sounds and experiences may technically be describable. But it's the experience itself that is ineffable. I've done LSD twice myself, and won't be doing it again for many years as I started suffering from panic attacks and pretty much an existential crisis as many others in this thread reported. That said, I don't regret taking it at all. It definitely broadened my mind to how simple we take the world for granted.
  - rpearl 11y ago
    Okay, I'm going to try to articulate the experience? Again, words are insufficient, but here are more of them.[1] So here goes: In the day-to-day life you experience a boundary between that which we consider 'self' and that which we consider 'other'. That boundary gives the environment shape, defined by what you know to be you. To say the same thing another way, the boundary is the difference between seeing the color blue, and describing it. Or the difference between listening to music, and describing vibrations in the air. Alan Watts has some lectures which might help you understand what this boundary is, if you don't "get it" yet. That boundary is illusory. It is a way of thinking, a way of separating out the ego's experience from the environment. It is a pattern of thought and thought patterns can be changed. Psychedelics (I'm told), meditation (I know), and other techniques (sensory deprivation? sleep deprivation? haven't tried) are ways of changing your thinking to remove or blur this boundary. Some ways are more permanent than others; having such an experience often leaves you questioning what permanent is in the first place. And again, as many in this thread have said, I've described it, or tried to, but it is necessary to experience it to actually understand the full detail of the situation. [1] Commentary: I would argue that any form of expressing experience to another person is by construction imprecise; to truly have the same experience you must be the same person, and then you wouldn't need words. http://eidolon.net/?story=Closer http://eidolon.net/?story=Closer
colordrops 11y ago
> What other experiences? Fevered dreams, near death experience, deep meditation, orgasm, stroke, epileptic fits, etc. > So you're saying the parent commenter was made aware of the Tao? Or that it was a religious experience? I don't follow I wasn't making any claim about his/her experience of the Tao. It was simply to emphasize my point, which is that certain experiences can not be described or analogized, but must be experienced first hand. > That's bogus. You're likening abstinence from LSD to a disability. Why is that bogus? > That suggests you agree that the past and future are connected and important. No, I said nothing of the sort. I said that you can't experience the future and past. They are just ideas in your head. They are just conceptual tools that you use to better your experience. How can conceptual tools be as important as you actual existence?

rosser 11y ago

> So you're saying the parent commenter was made aware of the Tao? No, he's saying, "Some things are ineffable." — in exactly so many words. There are experiences we can have that simply can not be articulated in something as clumsy and imprecise as language. The same word can mean subtly different things to the parties of a single conversation, and this kind of thing is pretty much all subtlety. The experiences you can have working with psychedelics are among the most, "You really had to be there," things possible, for values of "there" that generally taken to mean, "inside the same skull".

superswordfish 11y ago
But we're humans and our foremost means of communication is language. Who cares if it's clumsy and imprecise? Try us, it's the best we've got. Saying it's ineffable is lazy. Unless you're talking about the centerpiece of your religion, I suppose, so I thought parent was suggesting that this person had stumbled upon the Tao. Edit: My comments are getting hammered into oblivion, forbid somebody should try to hold something up to the light and expect an answer other than "you have to use psychedelics to get it." Maybe it's bad to care about objectivity when in the company of psychonauts? Sorry, but I have a hard time distinguishing what I read here from a host of other woo, and I'm left with questions, not answers. My questions are not meant to be dismissive in any way, but they are deliberately prying.
- colordrops 11y ago
  Perhaps that is your answer - that you will only be left with questions until you experience one of these states firsthand.
- nostalgiac 11y ago
  It's not lazy to say something such as an LSD trip is ineffable. It's just how it is. Sure a lot of the sounds, sounds and experiences may technically be describable. But it's the experience itself that is ineffable. I've done LSD twice myself, and won't be doing it again for many years as I started suffering from panic attacks and pretty much an existential crisis as many others in this thread reported. That said, I don't regret taking it at all. It definitely broadened my mind to how simple we take the world for granted.
- rpearl 11y ago
  Okay, I'm going to try to articulate the experience? Again, words are insufficient, but here are more of them.[1] So here goes: In the day-to-day life you experience a boundary between that which we consider 'self' and that which we consider 'other'. That boundary gives the environment shape, defined by what you know to be you. To say the same thing another way, the boundary is the difference between seeing the color blue, and describing it. Or the difference between listening to music, and describing vibrations in the air. Alan Watts has some lectures which might help you understand what this boundary is, if you don't "get it" yet. That boundary is illusory. It is a way of thinking, a way of separating out the ego's experience from the environment. It is a pattern of thought and thought patterns can be changed. Psychedelics (I'm told), meditation (I know), and other techniques (sensory deprivation? sleep deprivation? haven't tried) are ways of changing your thinking to remove or blur this boundary. Some ways are more permanent than others; having such an experience often leaves you questioning what permanent is in the first place. And again, as many in this thread have said, I've described it, or tried to, but it is necessary to experience it to actually understand the full detail of the situation. [1] Commentary: I would argue that any form of expressing experience to another person is by construction imprecise; to truly have the same experience you must be the same person, and then you wouldn't need words. http://eidolon.net/?story=Closer http://eidolon.net/?story=Closer

colordrops 11y ago

> What other experiences? Fevered dreams, near death experience, deep meditation, orgasm, stroke, epileptic fits, etc. > So you're saying the parent commenter was made aware of the Tao? Or that it was a religious experience? I don't follow I wasn't making any claim about his/her experience of the Tao. It was simply to emphasize my point, which is that certain experiences can not be described or analogized, but must be experienced first hand. > That's bogus. You're likening abstinence from LSD to a disability. Why is that bogus? > That suggests you agree that the past and future are connected and important. No, I said nothing of the sort. I said that you can't experience the future and past. They are just ideas in your head. They are just conceptual tools that you use to better your experience. How can conceptual tools be as important as you actual existence?