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> So, what was the answer? There isn't one, of course. Drugs like LSD and psilocybin put your mind in a state where you perceive knowledge that you don't actua

> So, what was the answer? There isn't one, of course. Drugs like LSD and psilocybin put your mind in a state where you perceive knowledge that you don't actually have. For many, that's enough to (begin to) resolve depression and anxiety, but obviously no drug is going to reveal the "true" nature of reality to you or something ridiculous like that.

billmalarky 11y ago
>Drugs like LSD and psilocybin put your mind in a state where you perceive knowledge that you don't actually have. I'm not sure altered perception is by definition "false" or "untrue." It's hard to be objective about experiences that by their nature are outside our objective reality.
- AstralStorm 11y ago
  They are inside objective reality (in that they can be studied scientifically) but are most likely internally generated. This makes them true in the sense that e.g. dreams are true experiences.
  - billmalarky 11y ago
    I guess what I was getting at is that maybe dreams or trips can be defined as truthy experiences so far as the fact that our brains are experiencing them, even if they aren't objectively "true" in what we define as the "real world." Experiencing "meaning" from music for example isn't necessarily objective, but it still feels a bit like "knowledge" to me. For what it's worth I've never used hard psychedelics, and I haven't studied classic epistemology since college so my viewpoint comes a bit from a point of ignorance but I wanted to provide a different perspective for discussion.
  - collyw 11y ago
    There isn't as far as I am aware any evidence that indicates that experiences are internally generated or "likely internally generated".
- deciplex 11y ago
  Nothing is outside our objective reality that I'm aware. You know when you're learning some new maths, or some other difficult abstract concept, and it just sort of "clicks" eventually and you understand, in whole and all at once? Something like that feeling you can get from drugs like LSD or psilocybin, but you don't actually "learn" anything in the usual sense. You just have a sensation of "getting it" for whatever problem happens to be on your mind, even if asking you to articulate it right then would result in nonsense because the sensation is actually backed by nothing at all. And I'm not trying to dismiss the experience of using hallucinogens by saying this, either. There is a class of problems people might be working through, which can cause anxiety and depression, and for them the sensation of "getting it" is enough to solve the problem. Hallucinogens are a great thing. And, to be clear, hallucinogens can also help you reason about your problems and provide actual insights that might not have occurred to you otherwise. However, in that case, you will actually be able to articulate it later, and perhaps even during. So it's good to have a firm grasp of what you're getting. It's sad if an otherwise good mind falls for the trap of thinking there is actually something there, and becomes obsessed with the "real reality" or whatever secret they think is being revealed to them by their drug use.
  - stuxnet79 11y ago
    Thanks a lot for this comment, my thoughts regarding LSD's effect on the brain were plodding towards what you just articulated. I've said this before, not in the context of LSD but in the context of mathematics, that's why your post really resonated with me. That whole sensation of some difficult, abstract concept "clicking" is useful but incredibly deceptive. That's why I love the rigor of mathematics. It draws you from whatever snake pits your intuition might have led you to. Even though your understanding of a concept might be wishy washy you know that by following the steps piecemeal they will lead you to the correct conclusion. Which leads me to one of my favorite math quotes ever: "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." - Von Neumann
  - stuxnet79 11y ago
    > You just have a sensation of "getting it" for whatever problem happens to be on your mind, even if asking you to articulate it right then would result in nonsense because the sensation is actually backed by nothing at all. Another example of this is when you are drifting towards sleep and thoughts start careening through your head. At some point you might have observed that you had a wonderful "aha" moment where it all just "clicked". But when you attempt to backtrack to check what it is that suddenly made so much sense, you grasp at straws (worst feeling ever) ... Feynman wrote about this in his bio and I remember bookmarking it because I totally understood what he was talking about. Let me see if I can find it right now. EDIT: "One thing that often happened was that as the hallucination was coming on, what you might describe as "garbage" would come: there were simply chaotic images complete, random junk. I tried to remember some of the items of the junk in order to be able to characterize it again, but it was particularly difficult to remember. I think I was getting close to the kind of thing that happens when you begin to fall asleep: There are apparent logical connections, but when you try to remember what made you think of what you're thinking about, you can't remember. As a matter of fact, you soon forget what it is that you're trying to remember" - Richard P Feynman (Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman)

billmalarky 11y ago

>Drugs like LSD and psilocybin put your mind in a state where you perceive knowledge that you don't actually have. I'm not sure altered perception is by definition "false" or "untrue." It's hard to be objective about experiences that by their nature are outside our objective reality.

AstralStorm 11y ago
They are inside objective reality (in that they can be studied scientifically) but are most likely internally generated. This makes them true in the sense that e.g. dreams are true experiences.
- billmalarky 11y ago
  I guess what I was getting at is that maybe dreams or trips can be defined as truthy experiences so far as the fact that our brains are experiencing them, even if they aren't objectively "true" in what we define as the "real world." Experiencing "meaning" from music for example isn't necessarily objective, but it still feels a bit like "knowledge" to me. For what it's worth I've never used hard psychedelics, and I haven't studied classic epistemology since college so my viewpoint comes a bit from a point of ignorance but I wanted to provide a different perspective for discussion.
- collyw 11y ago
  There isn't as far as I am aware any evidence that indicates that experiences are internally generated or "likely internally generated".
deciplex 11y ago
Nothing is outside our objective reality that I'm aware. You know when you're learning some new maths, or some other difficult abstract concept, and it just sort of "clicks" eventually and you understand, in whole and all at once? Something like that feeling you can get from drugs like LSD or psilocybin, but you don't actually "learn" anything in the usual sense. You just have a sensation of "getting it" for whatever problem happens to be on your mind, even if asking you to articulate it right then would result in nonsense because the sensation is actually backed by nothing at all. And I'm not trying to dismiss the experience of using hallucinogens by saying this, either. There is a class of problems people might be working through, which can cause anxiety and depression, and for them the sensation of "getting it" is enough to solve the problem. Hallucinogens are a great thing. And, to be clear, hallucinogens can also help you reason about your problems and provide actual insights that might not have occurred to you otherwise. However, in that case, you will actually be able to articulate it later, and perhaps even during. So it's good to have a firm grasp of what you're getting. It's sad if an otherwise good mind falls for the trap of thinking there is actually something there, and becomes obsessed with the "real reality" or whatever secret they think is being revealed to them by their drug use.
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  Thanks a lot for this comment, my thoughts regarding LSD's effect on the brain were plodding towards what you just articulated. I've said this before, not in the context of LSD but in the context of mathematics, that's why your post really resonated with me. That whole sensation of some difficult, abstract concept "clicking" is useful but incredibly deceptive. That's why I love the rigor of mathematics. It draws you from whatever snake pits your intuition might have led you to. Even though your understanding of a concept might be wishy washy you know that by following the steps piecemeal they will lead you to the correct conclusion. Which leads me to one of my favorite math quotes ever: "In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." - Von Neumann
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  > You just have a sensation of "getting it" for whatever problem happens to be on your mind, even if asking you to articulate it right then would result in nonsense because the sensation is actually backed by nothing at all. Another example of this is when you are drifting towards sleep and thoughts start careening through your head. At some point you might have observed that you had a wonderful "aha" moment where it all just "clicked". But when you attempt to backtrack to check what it is that suddenly made so much sense, you grasp at straws (worst feeling ever) ... Feynman wrote about this in his bio and I remember bookmarking it because I totally understood what he was talking about. Let me see if I can find it right now. EDIT: "One thing that often happened was that as the hallucination was coming on, what you might describe as "garbage" would come: there were simply chaotic images complete, random junk. I tried to remember some of the items of the junk in order to be able to characterize it again, but it was particularly difficult to remember. I think I was getting close to the kind of thing that happens when you begin to fall asleep: There are apparent logical connections, but when you try to remember what made you think of what you're thinking about, you can't remember. As a matter of fact, you soon forget what it is that you're trying to remember" - Richard P Feynman (Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman)