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Apparently, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children provides ISPs with a hash database of known illegal images [1]. ISPs are then required by st

Apparently, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children provides ISPs with a hash database of known illegal images [1]. ISPs are then required by statute to notify the government when images with matching hashes cross their network [2]. [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258C https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258C [2] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258A https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2258A

yeukhon 11y ago
While good, sort of scary because a lot of small players would host ads to get revenue and some of the ads would be filed with sexual content, even though these websites aren't even porn sites. Just some random humor site or some fortunate teller site, so if this were really true, wouldn't we be be looked at!?
- downandout 11y ago
  "Ads filled with sexual content"!="child porn"
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    yes, I know, but 1/1000 may be. what if it's loaded over http behind the scene without any display? still transmitted over your network. What if the site just got hacked?
    - erikpukinskis 11y ago
      Then those facts become part of the investigation. Having your computer searched doesn't mean you at guilty or even that you will be charged. It just means your machine is implicated in a crime.
      - lsaferite 11y ago
        The unfortunate reality is that if you become a suspect that is good enough to burn you at the stake for much of the population. The same with rape really. Once you've been a suspect or, even worse, accused you are basically screwed.
        erikpukinskis 11y ago
        Those are problems that should be solved directly.
- manarth 11y ago
  It's specifically referring to child porn, rather than generic adult content. That said, the UK equivalent, the IWF (Internet Watch Foundation) effectively blacklisted Wikipedia, because of the Scorpions' album cover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_...
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    See my response below about child porn. Thanks.
walrus01 11y ago
I know the hashes exist, but they're not used on traffic in transit except in very unusual circumstances. They're used by web hosting companies/dedicated server providers/VPS hosting companies etc to examine the disk/storage device contents of a suspicious server against a known list of the hashes of previously-seized CP.
ivanca 11y ago
All you have to do is get access to that DB and then you have A1 blackmail material, ready to bury any enemy of yours, specially in America, specially if they have/deal-with children.
- matt_wulfeck 11y ago
  I know you're being facetious but seriously... what a way to easily ruin someone's life. This system needs reform.
  - vinay427 11y ago
    > what a way to easily ruin someone's life. Isn't that what they're going for? I certainly haven't seen any signs of intent to correct or rehabilitate the convicted for many crimes. The Department of Corrections should just be called the Department of Punishment, in my opinion, though that's perhaps not as catchy.
    - sgc 11y ago
      I found it very interesting that in Italy the corresponding dept is called the "Department of Clemency and Justice".
  - baldfat 11y ago
    This is 100% true for anyone in IT could ruin anyone they want to. I am shocked the number of people caught doing this is so low but few people realize the power an IT person has.
    - matt_wulfeck 11y ago
      I can't even think of how someone could prevent this type of thing. Even if you kept your own access logs it's doubtful a judge would allow you to use it as evidence.
- SolarNet 11y ago
  I think, since it's a database of hashes, it's non-reversible. Access to the database gives you nothing but a way to detect the files, and even if a file happens to have the same hash (which would be exceedingly rare) it's easy to see that it's a false positive. Actually a pretty good win for cryptography in fighting the problem (as it doesn't require the illegal material to detect the illegal material - regardless of how irresponsible it is to have a concept of illegal information).
click170 11y ago
I always assumed antivirus venders were given a copy of the list as well. It's a way to scan millions of computers without the owners of those computers knowing they are even being checked. It's perfect. It also begs the question can you get around detection by re-encoding the files so the hashes don't match?
- EdHominem 11y ago
  They are. From experience, testing the updates for work. Didn't try mutating the test vector.
  - EdHominem 11y ago
    In response to OOB questions: No, it was a short string, not an image. If it was an image, I would have tried various mutations. Because of this, I assumed at the time, and still do, that it's a simple digest instead of a context aware image description. And it phoned "home" instead of alerting the user - even the institutional user.
- woliveirajr 11y ago
  Censorship. I don't want any ISP to filter my files because "they are harmfull". Or someone can think that a good Coke is bad for your health, and filter their ads? Or that masturbation is bad, and filter all XXX images?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- voxic11 11y ago
  No they are not like md5 hashes. They are likely https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA hashes.
DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
"a poor mans XKeyscore", more or less

yeukhon 11y ago

While good, sort of scary because a lot of small players would host ads to get revenue and some of the ads would be filed with sexual content, even though these websites aren't even porn sites. Just some random humor site or some fortunate teller site, so if this were really true, wouldn't we be be looked at!?

downandout 11y ago
"Ads filled with sexual content"!="child porn"
- yeukhon 11y ago
  yes, I know, but 1/1000 may be. what if it's loaded over http behind the scene without any display? still transmitted over your network. What if the site just got hacked?
  - erikpukinskis 11y ago
    Then those facts become part of the investigation. Having your computer searched doesn't mean you at guilty or even that you will be charged. It just means your machine is implicated in a crime.
    - lsaferite 11y ago
      The unfortunate reality is that if you become a suspect that is good enough to burn you at the stake for much of the population. The same with rape really. Once you've been a suspect or, even worse, accused you are basically screwed.
      - erikpukinskis 11y ago
        Those are problems that should be solved directly.
manarth 11y ago
It's specifically referring to child porn, rather than generic adult content. That said, the UK equivalent, the IWF (Internet Watch Foundation) effectively blacklisted Wikipedia, because of the Scorpions' album cover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Watch_Foundation_and_...
- yeukhon 11y ago
  See my response below about child porn. Thanks.

walrus01 11y ago

I know the hashes exist, but they're not used on traffic in transit except in very unusual circumstances. They're used by web hosting companies/dedicated server providers/VPS hosting companies etc to examine the disk/storage device contents of a suspicious server against a known list of the hashes of previously-seized CP.

ivanca 11y ago

All you have to do is get access to that DB and then you have A1 blackmail material, ready to bury any enemy of yours, specially in America, specially if they have/deal-with children.

matt_wulfeck 11y ago
I know you're being facetious but seriously... what a way to easily ruin someone's life. This system needs reform.
- vinay427 11y ago
  > what a way to easily ruin someone's life. Isn't that what they're going for? I certainly haven't seen any signs of intent to correct or rehabilitate the convicted for many crimes. The Department of Corrections should just be called the Department of Punishment, in my opinion, though that's perhaps not as catchy.
  - sgc 11y ago
    I found it very interesting that in Italy the corresponding dept is called the "Department of Clemency and Justice".
- baldfat 11y ago
  This is 100% true for anyone in IT could ruin anyone they want to. I am shocked the number of people caught doing this is so low but few people realize the power an IT person has.
  - matt_wulfeck 11y ago
    I can't even think of how someone could prevent this type of thing. Even if you kept your own access logs it's doubtful a judge would allow you to use it as evidence.
SolarNet 11y ago
I think, since it's a database of hashes, it's non-reversible. Access to the database gives you nothing but a way to detect the files, and even if a file happens to have the same hash (which would be exceedingly rare) it's easy to see that it's a false positive. Actually a pretty good win for cryptography in fighting the problem (as it doesn't require the illegal material to detect the illegal material - regardless of how irresponsible it is to have a concept of illegal information).

click170 11y ago

I always assumed antivirus venders were given a copy of the list as well. It's a way to scan millions of computers without the owners of those computers knowing they are even being checked. It's perfect. It also begs the question can you get around detection by re-encoding the files so the hashes don't match?

EdHominem 11y ago
They are. From experience, testing the updates for work. Didn't try mutating the test vector.
- EdHominem 11y ago
  In response to OOB questions: No, it was a short string, not an image. If it was an image, I would have tried various mutations. Because of this, I assumed at the time, and still do, that it's a simple digest instead of a context aware image description. And it phoned "home" instead of alerting the user - even the institutional user.
woliveirajr 11y ago
Censorship. I don't want any ISP to filter my files because "they are harmfull". Or someone can think that a good Coke is bad for your health, and filter their ads? Or that masturbation is bad, and filter all XXX images?
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
voxic11 11y ago
No they are not like md5 hashes. They are likely https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhotoDNA hashes.

DyslexicAtheist 11y ago

"a poor mans XKeyscore", more or less