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The rituals we perform and the games we play
- cpr 11y agoA mighty prolix way of saying "what is the meaning of life?"
- Jasamba 11y agoAgreed, but then that's literature's way of saying anything, the more prolix the better.
- AnimalMuppet 11y agoOnly within limits. And those limits are as defined by the audience, not by the author. (Or rather, the author, by setting the verbosity, determines the audience. If you want to reach the New Yorker audience, use lots of words. If you want to reach the average HN reader, not so much.)
- ycombosnator 11y agowas this written by an adult?
- Jasamba 11y agoAuthor here, half an adult i'd say. It was meant to be a stream of consciousness unloading exercise, my first one at that. I have no idea why people are upvoting it.
- munchbunny 11y agoYou're probably getting upvoted because there's a kernel of truth in it. Many of the very intelligent people I know have followed this line of thought at one point or another. I have as well, multiple times. It keeps coming back to "what's the point of what I'm doing?" and I've personally yet to find any sort of answer that speaks to any sort of higher truth than "I'm here, now what?"
- wbillingsley 11y agoA good read, though I think Solomon's version is more evocative. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1-3 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+1-...
- mordocai 11y agoI upvoted it because, as another commenter said, I have had much the same thoughts before. Some weeks/months I'll have these thoughts everyday. So basically, I upvoted because I identify with what you wrote.
- Jasamba 11y agoGlad I could do that. I wrote it in a pretty down state, so it pretty much wrote itself albeit the imperfect language and structure.
- twinkletwinkle 11y agoA little too self-indulgent for my tastes. Any time someone refers to humans as upgraded monkeys I have the same reaction ... "yeah, I get it. Now get over yourself".
- Jasamba 11y agoI agree and thank you for the feedback, for its defense, this was barely the first draft and really skims over the thoughts and follows them as they arrive. It is by no means a revised and generalized piece.
- spdnr 11y agoseems to devalue the practice of ritualism, while mocking the social constructs of presumably a city. maybe try reflecting on one or the other instead of devaluing the potency of each.
- reasonattlm 11y agoYou are in a desert of dunes. The day to day is between two dunes. You look up, you see sand. There are mountains in the distance. If you never walk up to the top of the dune, you won't know that, and if you don't make it a habit, you'll quickly forget that you saw them. Your life can be a procession of views of sand grains in between a few dunes, or it can be a deliberate migration towards the mountains. We are not terribly far from an ascension that will completely change the human condition, make it irrelevant as to what we our ancestors were in the evolutionary past, and make it possible to choose everything about what we will be. The future is glorious, golden, and accelerating. You can work towards that, or you can choose to ignore it.
- llamataboot 11y agoIs this the Singularity version of the rapture? The take-more-LSD version of the rapture? The cyborg version of the rapture? Or just the rapture?
- nosuchthing 11y agoYou are on a planet flying through space. The day to day is somewhere in space. You look up, you probably see sky. There are things that will happen in the future. If you always think about living for the future instead of the present, and you don't make it a habit, you'll quickly forget that you're living in a dream. Your life can be a procession of day jobs, food, media ad infinitum ad nauseam. We're not far from all the angels, demons, cyber raptures, and myriad of dogmatic ideologies we want to believe in, if we do, and it makes it possible to choose everything about what we choose to do each day. The future is unwritten.
- RangerScience 11y agoThis is fantastic. I'm about to turn 30 and I'm really feeling the lack of long-term goals and drives.
- dragontamer 11y agohttp://xkcd.com/220/ http://xkcd.com/220/ http://xkcd.com/167/ http://xkcd.com/167/ Yeah, sometimes you lose sight about what's beautiful in life. But its the human inside of you who determines whether life is beautiful or not. Why does anything matter? Is it all just a meaningless "ritual"? Maybe, if you don't care. But that doesn't seem like a very healthy mindset to keep yourself into. Life only has the meaning that you assign to it. Others will judge you for "meaningless" tasks, or you yourself may feel like things are meaningless at times. That's normal. Congratulations, you've rediscovered existentialism. Now either play the ritual of philosophy and find meaning in that discovery, or play something else. In any case, seeing life as a serious of "meaningless rituals" ignores the beauty and discovery that life gives us. We all have that phase in our life where we lose meaning, but one day you'll come back around and discover the reason why you continue to march forward. And at that point, you'll rediscover beauty and adventure. Life will be interesting. Today is not that day for you yet however.
- sliverstorm 11y agoIt makes me wonder what would happen to us if we didn’t have any more rituals to perform or standardized games to wake up to. We'd develop them again. We didn't get the set we have by accident. Some variation would be found, certainly, but cultures around the world converged on many similar notions reaching where we are today.
- Joof 11y agoHow many of those cultures evolved in isolation?
- bwackwat 11y agoSex!
- Paul_S 11y agoBacon!
- jacobolus 11y agoMy two favorite books on this subject: 1) James Carse, Finite and Infinite Games, http://amzn.com/1476731713 http://amzn.com/1476731713 2) Antoine de St.-Exupéry, Wisdom of the Sands (Fr. Citadelle) http://amzn.com/0226733726 http://amzn.com/0226733726
- sethc2 11y agoI enjoyed his points. I've often thought of the meaningless of things, but I like how he called them rituals. “Vanity of vanities!” says the Teacher, “Vanity of vanities! All is vanity!” The above is a quote from Ecclesiastes, which, even if you're not religious, is a pretty interesting book, and it seems to sum up pretty much what he is saying. Fitting enough, shortly after that opening statement in Ecclesiastes this is said. "What has been—it is what will be; what has been done—it is what will be done; there is nothing new under the sun. There is a thing of which it is said, “Look at this! This is new!” But it already existed in ages past before us."
- jasode 11y ago>his points. ... , but I like how he I don't know the writer but there's a good chance the author (HN userid Jasamba) is a "she".
- cortesoft 11y agoI don't know, this line seems pretty male-centric: "It’s as if you are now in the elite of the elites of the monkeys, in the good part of the forest where the trees grow bountiful and most female monkeys would kill to be considered a worthy partner by you, so that they too can perform the successful monkey rituals with you"
- Jasamba 11y agoFemale monkeys can be conscious of the ongoing situation you know ;), plus it could be the other way round as well if not for the centuries of 'I is man, so I is provide for family' prevailing expectations.
- cortesoft 11y agoYeah, but the 'you' is clearly referring to a male (who the females are going to 'perform the successful monkey ritual with), so the target is a male reader.
- elsurudo 11y agoYes, we are animals. That much is obvious. Yes, we are predictable animals. What is the point of it all? I think those that have found the courage to break free of the shackles of these "games" have found it. I hope to be among them one day, but right now, I am here, seeking freedom like the rest of us.
- nosuchthing 11y agoOh the woefulness of existential crisis... Go for a walk in the park. Go for a bike ride. Talk to new people, hang out with them. Play some games, don't be a jerk or else people will return the favor. Embark on an exuberant hedonistic adventure and when you burn out, swim into the ocean and begin an alternative life style.
- Jasamba 11y agoBut what's the poooiint..
- cortesoft 11y agoWhat would be a satisfying point to you? Can you describe an imaginary universe/reality that DOES have meaning, by your definition?
- Jasamba 11y agoThe point is that I am an unwilling participant in an evolutionary unfolding of life that I could not even make sense of until Mr. Darwin figured it out. Isn't it absurd that you are a critical thinking being, thrown onto a random planet with a certain set of initial conditions and limited knowledge collected by a few generations before you? And being aware of this, we go around like it's no big deal, buy our starbucks coffee and go on to complain about the tax rates and suicidal muslims.
- nosuchthing 11y ago
- woodchuck64 11y agoThe use of the word "ritual" seems to imply behavioral patterns done without fully understanding them. But a full explanation for human behavior requires a lot more than just understanding monkey behavior (why stop there rather than at mammal behavior, or tetrapod behavior, or RNA replicator behavior), it requires a perfect model of the universe extrapolated over 14 billion years which is forever beyond our grasp. "Ritual" also implies behavior that is done by rote or under duress. But that leaves out behavior that is done because it is desirable or an expected end of it is desirable. The drive to pursue pleasure does not require an explanation, it is its own explanation, much like the drive to avoid pain requires no explanation either. > It makes me wonder what would happen to us if we didn’t have any more rituals to perform or standardized games to wake up to. You describe the absence of all drives, a very unusual state. Sounds like depression, frankly.
- Paul_S 11y agoThis teenager will be singehandeldy (maybe with help from voters) responsible for several onsets of midlife crises. Words can be dangerous.
- maxerickson 11y agoThat's a bit over the top. Any mid life crisis that is one essay away from happening is pretty close to happening regardless.
- cortesoft 11y agoI always wonder with these "nothing we do has meaning" pieces... what WOULD give life 'real' meaning? As in, what alternate reality would provide meaning? I can't imagine a universe where things would have 'meaning' in the manner the author of this post seems to desire. Even if you believe in a God that gives our lives meaning, doesn't that just push up the search for 'meaning' one level? How is God choosing an arbitrary meaning for our lives any different than some other human choosing a meaning for your life? I can understand being frustrated by the drive for status and recognition, but that doesn't have to be the source for meaning in your life. We can find meaning in all sorts of things in our lives. We can find it in our relationships with our loved ones, in our enjoyment of our favorite activities, in our striving to advance human discovery and understanding of our world. These are things that can have intrinsic meaning, not things that only have meaning in the way they increase our status or grant us some secondary benefit. I would really suggest reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Viktor Frankl
- hosh 11y agoMuch of the constructed meanings that we create are as artificial and illusory as the masks we put upon ourselves, and the rituals we run through. Things, events, forms arises for no reason other than for it's own sake. That's not a cause for depression and nihilism. In fact, if you were able to clearly see that, this dance of things arising and passing, created, sustained, and dissolved back into the ground of being -- then you'd see the most beautiful thing you could see.
- Jasamba 11y agoI assume we are so used to living without meaning, that to simulate a world where there was inherent meaning seems a hyperbole. Yet if I could attempt to name it, perhaps it would be a reality with defined endpoints, and where we were not unwilling, clueless participants.
- kough 11y agoI rather like Camus' treatise of the subject. The wikipedia article serves as a well-written summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus
- Paul_S 11y agoWhen you remember that we are evolved monkeys it all makes perfect sense. Not saying it's somehow gratifying or inspiring but leaves little mystery. Probably not the answer you were looking for.
- hosh 11y agoWell... yes. There's more to it than that. The author pretty much stopped when he could keep going further. A lot of our identity is attached to these meaningless rituals and games. However, the one constant in all of it is Awareness. It's here that when one starts trying to find just "who" is aware that things get interesting again. It leads to some place much deeper and goes beyond the existential dread.
- Jasamba 11y agoThat was a point I wanted to dwell upon. Awareness while committing the rituals indeed changes the game but that would be incomplete without including free will and the concept of consciousness (giving rise to awareness) in general. But then going into successively deeper arguments endangers the article ever seeing the light of day.
- hosh 11y agoYou ever looked into the philosophy of non-dual Shaiva Tantra? Well, actually, just about any non-dual philosophies... Here, consciousness and awareness is not a concept, but the first principle of the universe -- from which the _concept_ of consciousness reflects upon the first principle (without actually being the first principle). It's a key insight that breaks out the nihilism. -- By "consciousness", I am speaking of awareness, not the constructed identity that most people calls "consciousness".
- fffrad 11y agoSure this kind of posts get pretty annoying. As the author keeps repeating "existential longing" I want to yell "get over it already" or "stop smoking pot". But then I remember that I have my moments too. It's not everyday, but I definitely have times where I look at the mundanity of programming. Today, making these pages render in a few milliseconds gets me excited, but the other day I was watching a live feed from the international space station and simply switched the channel. Because what's is the damn point. I don't find these posts meaningless. And don't be too quick to judge. Today it is him/her, tomorrow it is you!
- Jasamba 11y agoI swear there was no pot involved whatsoever, though if there had been, I'm certain you'd have been spared of the annoyance of yet another 'Why am I here/Everything is meaningless' piece.
- fffrad 11y agoI'm not saying writing this kind of piece is bad. I want to read them, and they are a good reminder that sometimes we get caught up in our little rituals and take it way too seriously. The fact that I was annoyed was exactly the point. I have my own days where I feel like all I am doing is meaningless, and in those days reading a post like this actually inspires me because I know I'm not alone in this feeling. Maybe I didn't express myself correctly on the previous comment, but in no way telling you to shut up. Just saying that today you are the one feeling like this. Tomorrow, it will be me.
- digsmahler 11y agoAn oblique point, but we apparently have more in common with apes than monkeys. Admittedly, you could have just as easily compared us with wolverines. Nicely written!
- graycoder 11y agoEmbrace nihilism! (if you want) But definitely read Camus and Nietzsche. Camus is particularly good if you'd like to be exposed to philosophies/ideas that result in happiness, rather than ones that demand you just have it.
- Jasamba 11y agoThanks, I started them at some point, but had too much at hand to really get into them. I basically wrote the article in under 15 minutes in a mildly depressive/ruminative state. Apart from the 'Gah, Get over it!', I now have all these awesome book suggestions to indulge my existential crisis in.
- graycoder 11y agoHaha, I know the feeling well. So much to do. Hard to really get through one thing before finding an awesome next story or idea. I don't think I've personally ever "gotten over" existential angst. I don't think I've ever tried because it's been with me for a while and I somehow came about experiencing it without hitting a deep depression. It's just there. Could have been the sets of fantasy books I read as a child/teenager allowing me to step outside myself mentally, or maybe it's a quirk of my upbringing. I was able to, and still am able to, think about suicide, the meaning of life, and how pointless it all is, while maintaining a relatively normal life. I often explain to friends and/or family about how my logical/conscious self defaults to existential nihilism and they either go, "Uhhh, ok..." or say, "That's impossible. You care. You can't act the way you do and not care." They're confused that I chose to live, I guess. So many people bias themselves towards a positive answer of the question: Does life have a meaning? Many say, "Of course it does. If you really thought otherwise you wouldn't be alive." For them it's: "Life has meaning... so I must live" "Life has no meaning... so I must die" I think there's a funny middle: "Life has no meaning... I... Well, I've got no idea, but I'm sure as hell not going to make a choice with no idea... I guess I'll see how it goes."
- resu_nimda 11y agoI was with you right up until the last line. I don't understand why most people view nihilism as bleak and depressing. Why do we crave meaning to give us direction? Nihilism feels so liberating to me. I have thoughts like these daily, they serve to remind me that we don't have to do the rituals if we don't want to. We can do whatever we want. At any moment. And nobody can say it's "wrong" or "bad," because those concepts don't exist in the universe at large. There's no point, there's no meaning, there's no goal - it's an open sandbox. Go play, while you still have the chance!
- fgoworwe 11y agoNihilism says play itself is meaningless. Not that I disagree that play is important, but it's your own meaning, your own value that you've either held on to or come up with. Frankly it's by rediscovering things like play that I was able to crawl back out of the abyss.
- resu_nimda 11y agoOf course play is meaningless. Killing yourself right now is an equally valid choice. It doesn't matter, do whatever. Go on a murderous rampage if you want. If you believe in material monism, then free will is essentially an illusion anyway. It's pretty difficult, as an animal brain subject to the illusion, to fully commit to living life that way, but I like to keep it in mind...
- ZenoArrow 11y agoFor something to be meaningless, there has to be something else that is meaningful, the definition only makes sense in opposition to something else, just like light is only light compared to the dark. So for life to be meaningless, you have to find something else that has meaning. What in your mind has meaning?
- resu_nimda 11y agoDoes everything have to be a duality like that? Can you have darkness without the concept of light? I believe in monism - ultimately there is only one thing, or one type of thing. It is not contrasted with anything else[1]. That's why it's not meaningful or meaningless, good or bad, right or wrong - it just "is." [1] Except, perhaps, complete nothingness, utter void. So in that sense everything that exists is meaningful, and only pure nothingness is meaningless.
- RangerScience 11y agohttp://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2394 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2394 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2871 http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2871 But I think between these two concepts: http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pdf http://www.alexwg.org/publications/PhysRevLett_110-168702.pd... https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory-of-life/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/20140122-a-new-physics-theory... there might be an implied purpose to the "universe".
- Jasamba 11y agoI like that you linked a journal article, thanks! And SMBC is just great, I'm constantly surprised that the creator started out with a literature degree, and ended up writing such relatable jokes for the academic community. Entropy maximization sounds about just as appealing as an answer as 42.