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You can argue the effectiveness of torture but this moral panic seems a bit too much in a world where we bomb and shoot people every day. If you're otherwise f

by nugga 11y ago

You can argue the effectiveness of torture but this moral panic seems a bit too much in a world where we bomb and shoot people every day. If you're otherwise fine with or at least accept war and its inevitable civilian casualties and the damage it does to people I don't see how you can be so against torture. Torture in that case is just a tool - you inflict violence to your enemies (instead of killing them) to potentially gain information. Sam Harris wrote a piece on why torture can be the lesser evil in some cases: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-tortu...

e1g 11y ago
>accept war ... and the damage it does to people I don't see how you can be so against torture We have collectively abolished many weapons and practices: chemical (e.g. nerve gas), technological (e.g. blinding lasers), or (e.g. booby traps), as well as many tactics (e.g. public executions). We held meetings (the Geneva/Hague conventions), and agreed these acts were too evil to continue. Now those choices are uniformly accepted as being progressive for our society. War is hell. We do hellish things to the "other" side. Historically, the "other" side often ends up being on "our" side sooner rather than later (alliances+migration). Every so often we decide which actions are too inhuman to perform, regardless of what uniform the human is wearing (if any). Right now we are deciding on whether the secrecy and severity of physical and mental torture, with no representation or defence available, is on the wrong side of who we want to be.
gnur 11y ago
War has never been cleaner then it is today, civilian casualties are down to levels never seen before. While torture (and all other cruel punishments) have been common for many years, today it just isn't acceptable for many people anymore. Death is a better outlook then being tortured for days, weeks or even months without outlook at a future without being tortured. War is the worst thing possible, but even wars have become less lethal and more "humane". The Geneva convention is not even 100 years old, before that plunder, rape and maiming and torturing where inseparable parts of war. I hope most people don't "want" to go to war, but feel they are fighting a war for the greater good. Even isis isn't fighting a war because they want to have war, they are fighting for ideals and values. And the West is fighting for their ideals and values. I can only recommend you to read "the better angels of our nature", it gives a much brighter picture of the future (and the present) then you seem to be experiencing.
gnur 11y ago
War has never been cleaner then it is today, civilian casualties are down to levels never seen before. While torture (and all other cruel punishments) have been common for many years, today it just isn't acceptable for many people anymore. Death is a better outlook then being tortured for days, weeks or even months without outlook at a future without being tortured. War is the worst thing possible, but even wars have become less lethal and more "humane". The Geneva convention is not even 100 years old, before that plunder, rape and maiming and torturing where inseparable parts of war. I hope most people don't "want" to go to war, but feel they are fighting a war for the greater good. Even isis isn't fighting a war because they want to have war, they are fighting for ideals and values. And the West is fighting for their ideals and values. I can only recommend you to read "the better angels of our nature", it gives a much brighter picture of the future (and the present) then you seem to be experiencing.
rdtsc 11y ago
> If you're otherwise fine with or at least accept war and its inevitable civilian casualties and the damage it does to people I don't see how you can be so against torture. Ah yes, the good old slippery slope argument... Yes, why stop. We already have wars, as long as we have them, let's start drilling holes in people spines, sticking needles under their nails and so on. Qualitatively we already there so no need for outrage.

by nugga 11y ago

e1g 11y ago

>accept war ... and the damage it does to people I don't see how you can be so against torture We have collectively abolished many weapons and practices: chemical (e.g. nerve gas), technological (e.g. blinding lasers), or (e.g. booby traps), as well as many tactics (e.g. public executions). We held meetings (the Geneva/Hague conventions), and agreed these acts were too evil to continue. Now those choices are uniformly accepted as being progressive for our society. War is hell. We do hellish things to the "other" side. Historically, the "other" side often ends up being on "our" side sooner rather than later (alliances+migration). Every so often we decide which actions are too inhuman to perform, regardless of what uniform the human is wearing (if any). Right now we are deciding on whether the secrecy and severity of physical and mental torture, with no representation or defence available, is on the wrong side of who we want to be.

gnur 11y ago

War has never been cleaner then it is today, civilian casualties are down to levels never seen before. While torture (and all other cruel punishments) have been common for many years, today it just isn't acceptable for many people anymore. Death is a better outlook then being tortured for days, weeks or even months without outlook at a future without being tortured. War is the worst thing possible, but even wars have become less lethal and more "humane". The Geneva convention is not even 100 years old, before that plunder, rape and maiming and torturing where inseparable parts of war. I hope most people don't "want" to go to war, but feel they are fighting a war for the greater good. Even isis isn't fighting a war because they want to have war, they are fighting for ideals and values. And the West is fighting for their ideals and values. I can only recommend you to read "the better angels of our nature", it gives a much brighter picture of the future (and the present) then you seem to be experiencing.

gnur 11y ago

rdtsc 11y ago

> If you're otherwise fine with or at least accept war and its inevitable civilian casualties and the damage it does to people I don't see how you can be so against torture. Ah yes, the good old slippery slope argument... Yes, why stop. We already have wars, as long as we have them, let's start drilling holes in people spines, sticking needles under their nails and so on. Qualitatively we already there so no need for outrage.