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Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry. Comparing them to software engineers is not

by fecak 11y ago

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry. Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

jazzyk 11y ago
Only because they have powerful professional gilds like the AMA and bar associations to establish entry barriers to the industry. And that's exactly what software professionals should do as well - have a strong professional body to represent us.
hiram112 11y ago
Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad requires. I've said this before: there are a lot of 20-something developers on HN that continue to push back against organizing as they're making decent money and in high demand (for the moment), compared to their friends in other professions. The problem is that once a software engineer hits his/her thirties, those professional friends have caught up in salary. We'll still be working in open-office environments with free soda, while they'll have real offices, expense accounts, salaries based on profits, and most importantly, respect. By late 30's, we've hit the glass ceiling, but doctors, law partners, finance and business pros are just getting started. There are exceptions (e.g. the lucky start-up guys, consultants that own their own shop, etc.), but for the most part, this is reality. The lack of any sort of organization for our 'profession' is one of the main reasons I'm beginning to look for a new career path. The H1B is a disaster - I actually worked in India for one of the big abusers, and realize that without something, things will get worse, especially since we've probably maxed out this latest bubble.
- fecak 11y ago
  It's not useful to try and debate that one field is more difficult than others. All three fields employ a mix of people with varying intellect. It's also not useful to make silly claims that every decent engineer you know had the intellect to complete medical/law school, or that numerous doctors/lawyers couldn't handle math/CS courses. Unless you're giving aptitude tests to your lawyers and doctors, which I assume you aren't. These claims are highly speculative and sound petty. Your other comments are more worthy of further thought. I don't understand why you feel software professionals aren't given respect. Nearly every "Best job" survey on the internet will list it #1 or 2, with several other technical jobs in the top 10. That doesn't necessarily equal respect, but the industry is certainly getting tons of attention and many are trying to enter through any means possible. I'm not sure how we can measure respect or disrespect, but I don't see it. I know plenty of engineers that are making a good living with plenty of work/life balance that are well beyond 40. I'm sure there are some that aren't as well, but engineers that are mindful of marketability can have a long run in the industry.
  - geebee 11y ago
    I agree that it isn't useful to compare fields. Unfortunately, we have to. There is currently a huge amount of debate about whether there is a "shortage" of software developers. This implies some kind of market failure, that US citizens and permanent residents are not responding to the market signals that should be drawing more people into the field. If we're going to have a meaningful discussion about this, then we more or less have to start to make these comparisons. Are people who have the freedom to chose their careers in the US behaving irrationally by choosing, law, medicine, finance, actuarial work, nursing, dental hygiene, and so forth over software development? A lot of people are surprised to hear that out in San Francisco (check BLS stats), the median salary for a software developer is roughly equivalent to a dental hygienist, notably less than for a registered nurse, and of course far less than the median for a doctor or lawyer. I don't object to higher salaries in these fields at all, but looking at the data, I'd say that any "shortage" is pretty easily explained as a rational response to pay, career security, working conditions, and the opportunity to do meaningful work that helps others. I don't see how you can answer this question without comparing the fields. As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical of almost all claims of a "shortage", regardless of industry. I don't dismiss it as a market impossibility the way some people do - I do believe that cultural and educational problems can lead to "shortages", but I do think we need to be very, very careful about analyzing it. Software is a tough one to analyze, because anyone can call themselves a programmer (or even an engineer, most places) after reading a book on php (or not reading it and just saying they did). But yeah, I do think that someone with the analytical and logical reasoning ability to program, the reading comprehension to wade through dense technical material, and the persistence to keep at it until he or she can actually write, adapt, and maintain a code base… yes, I do think that person is almost certainly capable of handling the academic work at the median level in more or less every profession.
- home_boi 11y ago
  Developers can retire by late 30's if the wages right now keep up with inflation. Using conservative Google compensation: 22 yrs: L3, $160k total comp 25 yrs: L4, $210k total comp 27 yrs: L5, $260k total comp 32 yrs: L6, $320k total comp 39 yrs: L6, $320k total comp Averages: 22-25: $180k avg 25-27: $230k avg 27-32: $280k avg 32-39: $320k avg 3 * 180 + 2 * 230 + 5 * 280 + 7 * 320 = 4.64 mil 4.64 mil * 0.6 (taxes/FICA) = 2.784 mil 2.784 mil - ($30k living costs/yr) * 17 yrs = 2.274 mil Enough to retire if you don't have a kid
  - aianus 11y ago
    Not to mention, you can easily retire on a third of that if you're willing to move to Asia or Eastern Europe.
  - tamana 11y ago
    Not having a kid is a pretty harsh requirement.
  - TrickedOut 11y ago
    Wow, that is incredible short-sightedness. I saw comparisons like this back in 1999, before the industry fell apart. Before a generation of companies went under. Before stocks fall and render the total comp just cash comp. before you get pushed aside due to age discrimination. Also, one health-related event will wipe out a quarter of that nest-egg. You cant really retire...

by fecak 11y ago

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry. Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

jazzyk 11y ago

Only because they have powerful professional gilds like the AMA and bar associations to establish entry barriers to the industry. And that's exactly what software professionals should do as well - have a strong professional body to represent us.

hiram112 11y ago

Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad requires. I've said this before: there are a lot of 20-something developers on HN that continue to push back against organizing as they're making decent money and in high demand (for the moment), compared to their friends in other professions. The problem is that once a software engineer hits his/her thirties, those professional friends have caught up in salary. We'll still be working in open-office environments with free soda, while they'll have real offices, expense accounts, salaries based on profits, and most importantly, respect. By late 30's, we've hit the glass ceiling, but doctors, law partners, finance and business pros are just getting started. There are exceptions (e.g. the lucky start-up guys, consultants that own their own shop, etc.), but for the most part, this is reality. The lack of any sort of organization for our 'profession' is one of the main reasons I'm beginning to look for a new career path. The H1B is a disaster - I actually worked in India for one of the big abusers, and realize that without something, things will get worse, especially since we've probably maxed out this latest bubble.

fecak 11y ago
It's not useful to try and debate that one field is more difficult than others. All three fields employ a mix of people with varying intellect. It's also not useful to make silly claims that every decent engineer you know had the intellect to complete medical/law school, or that numerous doctors/lawyers couldn't handle math/CS courses. Unless you're giving aptitude tests to your lawyers and doctors, which I assume you aren't. These claims are highly speculative and sound petty. Your other comments are more worthy of further thought. I don't understand why you feel software professionals aren't given respect. Nearly every "Best job" survey on the internet will list it #1 or 2, with several other technical jobs in the top 10. That doesn't necessarily equal respect, but the industry is certainly getting tons of attention and many are trying to enter through any means possible. I'm not sure how we can measure respect or disrespect, but I don't see it. I know plenty of engineers that are making a good living with plenty of work/life balance that are well beyond 40. I'm sure there are some that aren't as well, but engineers that are mindful of marketability can have a long run in the industry.
- geebee 11y ago
  I agree that it isn't useful to compare fields. Unfortunately, we have to. There is currently a huge amount of debate about whether there is a "shortage" of software developers. This implies some kind of market failure, that US citizens and permanent residents are not responding to the market signals that should be drawing more people into the field. If we're going to have a meaningful discussion about this, then we more or less have to start to make these comparisons. Are people who have the freedom to chose their careers in the US behaving irrationally by choosing, law, medicine, finance, actuarial work, nursing, dental hygiene, and so forth over software development? A lot of people are surprised to hear that out in San Francisco (check BLS stats), the median salary for a software developer is roughly equivalent to a dental hygienist, notably less than for a registered nurse, and of course far less than the median for a doctor or lawyer. I don't object to higher salaries in these fields at all, but looking at the data, I'd say that any "shortage" is pretty easily explained as a rational response to pay, career security, working conditions, and the opportunity to do meaningful work that helps others. I don't see how you can answer this question without comparing the fields. As you can probably tell, I'm skeptical of almost all claims of a "shortage", regardless of industry. I don't dismiss it as a market impossibility the way some people do - I do believe that cultural and educational problems can lead to "shortages", but I do think we need to be very, very careful about analyzing it. Software is a tough one to analyze, because anyone can call themselves a programmer (or even an engineer, most places) after reading a book on php (or not reading it and just saying they did). But yeah, I do think that someone with the analytical and logical reasoning ability to program, the reading comprehension to wade through dense technical material, and the persistence to keep at it until he or she can actually write, adapt, and maintain a code base… yes, I do think that person is almost certainly capable of handling the academic work at the median level in more or less every profession.
home_boi 11y ago
Developers can retire by late 30's if the wages right now keep up with inflation. Using conservative Google compensation: 22 yrs: L3, $160k total comp 25 yrs: L4, $210k total comp 27 yrs: L5, $260k total comp 32 yrs: L6, $320k total comp 39 yrs: L6, $320k total comp Averages: 22-25: $180k avg 25-27: $230k avg 27-32: $280k avg 32-39: $320k avg 3 * 180 + 2 * 230 + 5 * 280 + 7 * 320 = 4.64 mil 4.64 mil * 0.6 (taxes/FICA) = 2.784 mil 2.784 mil - ($30k living costs/yr) * 17 yrs = 2.274 mil Enough to retire if you don't have a kid
- aianus 11y ago
  Not to mention, you can easily retire on a third of that if you're willing to move to Asia or Eastern Europe.
- tamana 11y ago
  Not having a kid is a pretty harsh requirement.
- TrickedOut 11y ago
  Wow, that is incredible short-sightedness. I saw comparisons like this back in 1999, before the industry fell apart. Before a generation of companies went under. Before stocks fall and render the total comp just cash comp. before you get pushed aside due to age discrimination. Also, one health-related event will wipe out a quarter of that nest-egg. You cant really retire...