5 ms·

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general un

by V-2 11y ago

A lot of software engineers are autodidacts and never graduated in IT. I didn't (I have an MA in politics, obviously irrelevant to my profession). In general unemployment in IT is very low, and there's always a shortage of programmers, so job security is clearly above average. (And government administrations have IT departments, too). It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. I'm not buying any of the above as a justification for big salaries.

ghaff 11y ago
>It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. Yup. There may be good demand because of force multiplier or return to capital or whatever. (Which are just ways of saying that the work translates into something people are willing to pay for.) And there may be (somewhat) limited supply because it's not something everyone wants to or can do, whether through formal education or otherwise. But, take either supply or demand away and the salaries commanded adjust accordingly. That I could spend 10 years becoming an expert on medieval German literature doesn't necessarily mean that I could command a high salary however rare that expertise.
berntb 11y ago
>> there's always a shortage of programmers Wow, people really have forgotten the IT-death. :-) There are cycles and bubbles here too. They just might not be in phase with the general economy. (And get off my lawn. :-) )
- V-2 11y ago
  Yeah, well, "always" is an overstatement. Of course there are ups and downs. But it's a matter of proportions - this profession still has it easy. I can't recall a headline informing about massive layoffs of software devs :)
mr_luc 11y ago
Yeah -- "force multiplier," and talk of how programmers can obsolete other jobs, is at least partly an argument that programmers 'deserve' their salaries, because they make society permanently more efficient. That discussion feels imprecise, though. Are those really the reasons that programmer salaries are what they are? If there were 20x more programmers, would that change things? Worse, it makes me want to avoid that whole side of the discussion, because it also sounds like justifying an economic fact on moral grounds. Yes, supply and demand and perverse economic incentives sometimes result in high demand for things that aren't that beneficial to society as a whole. Personally, I happen to think that what programmers do is more beneficial to society than what Hedge Fund managers do. But I don't care to have a conversation about whether or not we 'deserve our rates.' It's what supply and demand dictates; that much is definitely true.
Gratsby 11y ago
While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight. Software developers work longer hours. I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives. And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security.
- V-2 11y ago
  > While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight. Agreed. Plus, learning in this trade is a job never done. It's not like once you get a foot in the door (and land a job), you're set for life. > Software developers work longer hours. I can't speak for the US, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Europe. I live and work in Poland, I kind of know the job market in the UK and Germany. > And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security. Well, relative job security. Not neccessarily in terms of any single job being safe and granted, but there's a rather slim chance of getting stranded between jobs.
- jacalata 11y ago
  Longer hours than who?
  - Gratsby 11y ago
    The general populace.
- Gargoyle 11y ago
  > I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives. And I've always worked in environments where they do. Anecdata for the win?
  - kingnothing 11y ago
    Same here. I've always worked more or less 8 hour days with occasional exceptions for emergencies and crunch time to hit a deadline.
michaelmrose 11y ago
Why do such salaries need justification other than people are willing to pay them
- TrickedOut 11y ago
  Because these conversations drive increased immigration quotas and increase of supply to "correct" the overly high salaries.

by V-2 11y ago

ghaff 11y ago

>It's supply vs. demand, that's all there is to it. Yup. There may be good demand because of force multiplier or return to capital or whatever. (Which are just ways of saying that the work translates into something people are willing to pay for.) And there may be (somewhat) limited supply because it's not something everyone wants to or can do, whether through formal education or otherwise. But, take either supply or demand away and the salaries commanded adjust accordingly. That I could spend 10 years becoming an expert on medieval German literature doesn't necessarily mean that I could command a high salary however rare that expertise.

berntb 11y ago

>> there's always a shortage of programmers Wow, people really have forgotten the IT-death. :-) There are cycles and bubbles here too. They just might not be in phase with the general economy. (And get off my lawn. :-) )

V-2 11y ago
Yeah, well, "always" is an overstatement. Of course there are ups and downs. But it's a matter of proportions - this profession still has it easy. I can't recall a headline informing about massive layoffs of software devs :)

mr_luc 11y ago

Yeah -- "force multiplier," and talk of how programmers can obsolete other jobs, is at least partly an argument that programmers 'deserve' their salaries, because they make society permanently more efficient. That discussion feels imprecise, though. Are those really the reasons that programmer salaries are what they are? If there were 20x more programmers, would that change things? Worse, it makes me want to avoid that whole side of the discussion, because it also sounds like justifying an economic fact on moral grounds. Yes, supply and demand and perverse economic incentives sometimes result in high demand for things that aren't that beneficial to society as a whole. Personally, I happen to think that what programmers do is more beneficial to society than what Hedge Fund managers do. But I don't care to have a conversation about whether or not we 'deserve our rates.' It's what supply and demand dictates; that much is definitely true.

Gratsby 11y ago

While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight. Software developers work longer hours. I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives. And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security.

V-2 11y ago
> While there is a segment of autodidacts, it's not like people can become expert software developers overnight. Agreed. Plus, learning in this trade is a job never done. It's not like once you get a foot in the door (and land a job), you're set for life. > Software developers work longer hours. I can't speak for the US, but it doesn't seem to be the case in Europe. I live and work in Poland, I kind of know the job market in the UK and Germany. > And while unemployment may be low in IT, developers do not enjoy job security. Well, relative job security. Not neccessarily in terms of any single job being safe and granted, but there's a rather slim chance of getting stranded between jobs.
jacalata 11y ago
Longer hours than who?
- Gratsby 11y ago
  The general populace.
Gargoyle 11y ago
> I've never been in an environment where developers hang their coats up at 5:00 and go on with their carefree lives. And I've always worked in environments where they do. Anecdata for the win?
- kingnothing 11y ago
  Same here. I've always worked more or less 8 hour days with occasional exceptions for emergencies and crunch time to hit a deadline.

michaelmrose 11y ago

Why do such salaries need justification other than people are willing to pay them

TrickedOut 11y ago
Because these conversations drive increased immigration quotas and increase of supply to "correct" the overly high salaries.