11 ms·

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours,

by glogla 11y ago

Software engineers are like doctors or lawyers - long period of study on difficult (and in places where people pay for colleges expensive) schools, long hours, but good pay. So it makes sense to compare them with doctors and lawyers. Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story.

nibs 11y ago
Disagree. Status is attributed based on "How useful are you or can you be to me?". A doctor and lawyer could be very useful to me personally, selfishly. A software engineer tends to be very useful to capital (institutions, etc.) but not as useful to an individual personally. Facebook engineers have a lot of status - because people use Facebook personally all the time. A great engineer who programs stop lights, manufacturing PLCs, business application, etc. not so much. No selfish benefit = No love.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  I don't think that's right. A plumber or home health aide is pretty useful too.
  - nibs 11y ago
    I think it depends on the circles you travel in - those are the professions the most practical/dependable people from my area went into, so from my perspective they do get status to a certain degree, at least from my friends. There will always be the illusory gap between blue vs. white collar workers.
    - emodendroket 11y ago
      Yes, but why should that be the case, is the question. I read an article I think was linked here arguing exactly the opposite -- that the less real utility a profession provided the higher the pay and the higher the esteem.
rubidium 11y ago
Not really. SW engineers are more like the better paid regular engineer. Hired for a specific, technical purpose. Expected to (usually) have gone to college. No offense, but equating a comp sci degree (even with years of work experience) to a medical doctor is a little laughable. Doctors (as a field) are a step up from software engineers in terms of professionalism and work expectations.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery things like "professional societies with teeth" and "board/bar certifications" and "codes of ethics" (good luck on that last one).
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.
    - hiram112 11y ago
      They exist to keep their own wages artificially high. Honestly, I think half my freshman Chem. I lecture of 500 students was pre-med. Only about 1/20 of them ended up in medical school, due to the artificial limits imposed by the AMA. We have a huge lack of doctors in the US due to the boomer generation getting older, but the medical school enrollment has not increased. In fact, the AMA was originally founded to keep mid-wives from taking a cut of their most lucrative child-birthing business. They are one of the biggest lobbying organizations in the country after the military industrial complex. Along with the Bar Association, Teachers and Police Unions, and financial organizations, the AMA proudly proclaims that their goal is to enforce 'quality' standards for the good of the public. Don't fall for the spin. We software engineers currently lack the social intelligence to realize how bad we're getting screwed, which is ironic considering the technical prowess we've collectively got.
emodendroket 11y ago
Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Keep in mind that there's lots of different definitions of classes. Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. In general it's probably more interesting to discuss the various things people use to differentiate roles than it is to argue about what words should be used to describe the roles.
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    > Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      It's not that eccentric. For instance, Marx didn't look just at what the job involved but at the terms of employment. In his terms, programmers making some of the highest salaries are still working class because they are paid a wage by a corporation. A plumber operating a business by would be middle class in the same system (they are working for themselves). There are ways in which those distinctions are much more interesting than wage levels (which tend to dominate "class" discussion in the US).
      - emodendroket 11y ago
        Well, Marx has more nuanced categories than just wage earners and capitalists. The professional class doesn't have class interests that are identical to those of manual laborers.
    - hiram112 11y ago
      I agree that "working class" has typically, in the US at least, referred to blue collar workers. OTOH, as more and more blue collar type jobs are being obsoleted by machines, I think we're coming up upon a more modern definition of working class: those who do not derive profits from their actual value-add. For example, most other 'professional' type jobs - finance, law, medicine, etc. - typically have a well defined career path where you're used and abused when young, but typically get to share in the profits once you make partner or senior level. OTOH, most engineers will max out at about $100K-$160K based on location, and will never share in any profits or income. Realize that Google and Facebook are not typical when you consider the millions of engineers working in mostly typical cost-based positions for insurance companies, banks, and other non SV companies. Obviously, $150K is much better than the other 'service' workers making half that, but we're moving closer and closer to becoming a 'working-class' type profession instead of one that's respected /w regard to both pay and societal treatment.
fecak 11y ago
Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry. Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.
- jazzyk 11y ago
  Only because they have powerful professional gilds like the AMA and bar associations to establish entry barriers to the industry. And that's exactly what software professionals should do as well - have a strong professional body to represent us.
- hiram112 11y ago
  Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad requires. I've said this before: there are a lot of 20-something developers on HN that continue to push back against organizing as they're making decent money and in high demand (for the moment), compared to their friends in other professions. The problem is that once a software engineer hits his/her thirties, those professional friends have caught up in salary. We'll still be working in open-office environments with free soda, while they'll have real offices, expense accounts, salaries based on profits, and most importantly, respect. By late 30's, we've hit the glass ceiling, but doctors, law partners, finance and business pros are just getting started. There are exceptions (e.g. the lucky start-up guys, consultants that own their own shop, etc.), but for the most part, this is reality. The lack of any sort of organization for our 'profession' is one of the main reasons I'm beginning to look for a new career path. The H1B is a disaster - I actually worked in India for one of the big abusers, and realize that without something, things will get worse, especially since we've probably maxed out this latest bubble.
  - fecak 11y ago
    It's not useful to try and debate that one field is more difficult than others. All three fields employ a mix of people with varying intellect. It's also not useful to make silly claims that every decent engineer you know had the intellect to complete medical/law school, or that numerous doctors/lawyers couldn't handle math/CS courses. Unless you're giving aptitude tests to your lawyers and doctors, which I assume you aren't. These claims are highly speculative and sound petty. Your other comments are more worthy of further thought. I don't understand why you feel software professionals aren't given respect. Nearly every "Best job" survey on the internet will list it #1 or 2, with several other technical jobs in the top 10. That doesn't necessarily equal respect, but the industry is certainly getting tons of attention and many are trying to enter through any means possible. I'm not sure how we can measure respect or disrespect, but I don't see it. I know plenty of engineers that are making a good living with plenty of work/life balance that are well beyond 40. I'm sure there are some that aren't as well, but engineers that are mindful of marketability can have a long run in the industry.

by glogla 11y ago

nibs 11y ago

Disagree. Status is attributed based on "How useful are you or can you be to me?". A doctor and lawyer could be very useful to me personally, selfishly. A software engineer tends to be very useful to capital (institutions, etc.) but not as useful to an individual personally. Facebook engineers have a lot of status - because people use Facebook personally all the time. A great engineer who programs stop lights, manufacturing PLCs, business application, etc. not so much. No selfish benefit = No love.

emodendroket 11y ago
I don't think that's right. A plumber or home health aide is pretty useful too.
- nibs 11y ago
  I think it depends on the circles you travel in - those are the professions the most practical/dependable people from my area went into, so from my perspective they do get status to a certain degree, at least from my friends. There will always be the illusory gap between blue vs. white collar workers.
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    Yes, but why should that be the case, is the question. I read an article I think was linked here arguing exactly the opposite -- that the less real utility a profession provided the higher the pay and the higher the esteem.

rubidium 11y ago

Not really. SW engineers are more like the better paid regular engineer. Hired for a specific, technical purpose. Expected to (usually) have gone to college. No offense, but equating a comp sci degree (even with years of work experience) to a medical doctor is a little laughable. Doctors (as a field) are a step up from software engineers in terms of professionalism and work expectations.

GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago

> Unlike doctors and lawyers, software engineers don't have any respect and are pretty much working class, but that's another story I see this kind of Rodney Dangerfield sentiment a lot on HN but it has never made a lick of sense to me (especially the "pretty much working class" variety). And also if software engineers want to get into the "doctors and lawyers" category we need to start doing doctory and lawyery things like "professional societies with teeth" and "board/bar certifications" and "codes of ethics" (good luck on that last one).

cookiecaper 11y ago
The things you mention -- gatekeepers with teeth -- are a nightmare. They have eviscerated the medical and legal professions to the point of self-parody. They exist to keep otherwise qualified people out explicitly because they want to keep their wages high.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  That's uncharitable. They exist to keep quacks away - both professions are extremely sensitive and prone to fakery.
  - hiram112 11y ago
    They exist to keep their own wages artificially high. Honestly, I think half my freshman Chem. I lecture of 500 students was pre-med. Only about 1/20 of them ended up in medical school, due to the artificial limits imposed by the AMA. We have a huge lack of doctors in the US due to the boomer generation getting older, but the medical school enrollment has not increased. In fact, the AMA was originally founded to keep mid-wives from taking a cut of their most lucrative child-birthing business. They are one of the biggest lobbying organizations in the country after the military industrial complex. Along with the Bar Association, Teachers and Police Unions, and financial organizations, the AMA proudly proclaims that their goal is to enforce 'quality' standards for the good of the public. Don't fall for the spin. We software engineers currently lack the social intelligence to realize how bad we're getting screwed, which is ironic considering the technical prowess we've collectively got.

emodendroket 11y ago

Software engineers are not "working class." Where did you get that idea?

maxerickson 11y ago
Keep in mind that there's lots of different definitions of classes. Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. In general it's probably more interesting to discuss the various things people use to differentiate roles than it is to argue about what words should be used to describe the roles.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  > Software reasonably fits in as a white collar job, which is working class. That's a rather eccentric understanding of "working-class," which typically refers to blue collar workers.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    It's not that eccentric. For instance, Marx didn't look just at what the job involved but at the terms of employment. In his terms, programmers making some of the highest salaries are still working class because they are paid a wage by a corporation. A plumber operating a business by would be middle class in the same system (they are working for themselves). There are ways in which those distinctions are much more interesting than wage levels (which tend to dominate "class" discussion in the US).
    - emodendroket 11y ago
      Well, Marx has more nuanced categories than just wage earners and capitalists. The professional class doesn't have class interests that are identical to those of manual laborers.
  - hiram112 11y ago
    I agree that "working class" has typically, in the US at least, referred to blue collar workers. OTOH, as more and more blue collar type jobs are being obsoleted by machines, I think we're coming up upon a more modern definition of working class: those who do not derive profits from their actual value-add. For example, most other 'professional' type jobs - finance, law, medicine, etc. - typically have a well defined career path where you're used and abused when young, but typically get to share in the profits once you make partner or senior level. OTOH, most engineers will max out at about $100K-$160K based on location, and will never share in any profits or income. Realize that Google and Facebook are not typical when you consider the millions of engineers working in mostly typical cost-based positions for insurance companies, banks, and other non SV companies. Obviously, $150K is much better than the other 'service' workers making half that, but we're moving closer and closer to becoming a 'working-class' type profession instead of one that's respected /w regard to both pay and societal treatment.

fecak 11y ago

Doctors and lawyers require outside certification and extensive post-graduate education just to enter the industry. Comparing them to software engineers is not a useful comparison.

jazzyk 11y ago
Only because they have powerful professional gilds like the AMA and bar associations to establish entry barriers to the industry. And that's exactly what software professionals should do as well - have a strong professional body to represent us.
hiram112 11y ago
Doctors and lawyers have created their own barriers to entry via the AMA and Bar Association. Honestly, I don't think I've ever met a decent software engineer that wouldn't have the intelligence to make it through either medical or law school, should they apply themself. OTOH, I've met numerous doctors and lawyers that would never be able to handle the typical high-level math and CS courses a decent undergrad requires. I've said this before: there are a lot of 20-something developers on HN that continue to push back against organizing as they're making decent money and in high demand (for the moment), compared to their friends in other professions. The problem is that once a software engineer hits his/her thirties, those professional friends have caught up in salary. We'll still be working in open-office environments with free soda, while they'll have real offices, expense accounts, salaries based on profits, and most importantly, respect. By late 30's, we've hit the glass ceiling, but doctors, law partners, finance and business pros are just getting started. There are exceptions (e.g. the lucky start-up guys, consultants that own their own shop, etc.), but for the most part, this is reality. The lack of any sort of organization for our 'profession' is one of the main reasons I'm beginning to look for a new career path. The H1B is a disaster - I actually worked in India for one of the big abusers, and realize that without something, things will get worse, especially since we've probably maxed out this latest bubble.
- fecak 11y ago
  It's not useful to try and debate that one field is more difficult than others. All three fields employ a mix of people with varying intellect. It's also not useful to make silly claims that every decent engineer you know had the intellect to complete medical/law school, or that numerous doctors/lawyers couldn't handle math/CS courses. Unless you're giving aptitude tests to your lawyers and doctors, which I assume you aren't. These claims are highly speculative and sound petty. Your other comments are more worthy of further thought. I don't understand why you feel software professionals aren't given respect. Nearly every "Best job" survey on the internet will list it #1 or 2, with several other technical jobs in the top 10. That doesn't necessarily equal respect, but the industry is certainly getting tons of attention and many are trying to enter through any means possible. I'm not sure how we can measure respect or disrespect, but I don't see it. I know plenty of engineers that are making a good living with plenty of work/life balance that are well beyond 40. I'm sure there are some that aren't as well, but engineers that are mindful of marketability can have a long run in the industry.