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> They set out to demonstrate that white men dominate movie roles. They don't write this in the article so why do you say this? > In fact, if feminists are so

by tomlock 11y ago

> They set out to demonstrate that white men dominate movie roles. They don't write this in the article so why do you say this? > In fact, if feminists are so convinced that many, many women are longing for different movies, they should raise money to make those movies. (Anita Sarkeezian already raised amore than a million $ for some lousy YouTube videos, so it certainly isn't impossible to raise money for feminist movies). You're ranting about something not related to the article, again. > it seems as if women dominate the modeling industry. Another claim with no evidence. Another perfect demonstration of why the quantification in the article is useful.

facepalm 11y ago
"They don't write this in the article so why do you say this?" They write it literally in the first paragraph: "white men dominate movie roles... But it’s all rhetoric and no data...To begin answering these questions" "You're ranting about something not related to the article, again." You don't seem to understand or not want to understand the point I am trying to make. Nor have you ever answered my question what, in your opinion, is the actual problem the article uncovers? "Another claim with no evidence. Another perfect demonstration of why the quantification in the article is useful." That is just ridiculous. First, just because you throw some numbers or data around, you don't have evidence. In this case, you have data about lines in movies, but not about customer demand for movies of various properties (for example). Second, it is still possible to have a conversation without an Excel sheet in the background. You also don't seem to be interested enough in my argument to do your own research. I actually did google a bit on the model thing, but the first hits were about male models earning less than female models. Finding actual numbers of employed models and the exposure they get would have taken longer. It simply didn't seem worth it for an example, given that I am not campaigning for model rights or anything. Maybe I would have even made that effort, but the model, as well as the women's magazines, are actually just an example. I clearly stated that. They are meant as a thought experiment. Unless you are convinced that there is no industry on earth dominated by women (are you?), it doesn't matter if in one particular example the numbers add up, because by magic of armchair thinking, you could just pick another example to clarify the concept. Or let's assume no industry on earth is dominated by women. You could STILL make a thought experiment and think of some theoretical industry where women dominate, to try to understand the point. If you have at least a shred of imagination, that is. I am not going to repeat the point I was trying to make, as you seem to be not interested in understanding it (not even accepting it, just understanding it). Should my estimate of your motivation be wrong, ask away and I'll try to clarify. Otherwise, why not end the discussion here.
- tomlock 11y ago
  Without your ellipses it doesn't come across as a literal statement: "The prevailing theme: white men dominate movie roles." That is not equivalent to "White men dominate movie roles." The prevailing theme of the shit Hollywood is getting is that white men dominate movie roles. How can you look at yourself as a reliable source when you need to chop up quotes so needlessly? Interestingly, even given your massacring of quotes, you seem totally willing to conduct thought experiments, and use the results (lol) of your thought experiments to accuse articles of being useless. Without quantification, in the words of the article "it’s all rhetoric and no data, which gets us nowhere in terms of having an informed discussion." Unfortunately, you seem absolutely convinced that the burden lies on me to provide proof, that meets your standards, for claims you make from thought experiments, that aren't addressed or even mentioned in the article. As I said very early on, I encourage you to do some quantifiable analysis.
  - facepalm 11y ago
    Huh, you blame me for not providing data, but you don't want to provide data yourself? I don't understand your comment on my quotes of the article. They clearly set out to show in what ways white men dominate movie roles. My quote didn't distort that statement at all - I only chopped it up to make the quote shorter. You still haven't answered what you consider to be the use of the article? What are we even talking about? What data ("quantifiable analysis") do you want me to provide? I don't understand you. Thought experiments aren't useless, and data isn't automatically useful. You seem to be blinded by the presentation of the article (has charts and data, seems legit). It's like trusting a person because they dress like a physician - understandable human flaw, but misguided.
    - tomlock 11y ago
      I'm not dismissing a quantified claim without evidence, so why would I provide data? Interestingly, after the phrase you quoted out of context, they don't mention race again. Also they clearly aimed to discuss the claims made against Hollywood in a quantified manner. You are clearly just assuming that they had an agenda. Could you provide any quantifiable analysis for your claim: "What matters is that all demographics get to see the films they like. It doesn't hurt one demographic if another demographic has more films made for." Unfortunately you seem blinded by a high opinion of your own opinions. I trust the article more than I trust your armchair assumptions.

by tomlock 11y ago

facepalm 11y ago

"They don't write this in the article so why do you say this?" They write it literally in the first paragraph: "white men dominate movie roles... But it’s all rhetoric and no data...To begin answering these questions" "You're ranting about something not related to the article, again." You don't seem to understand or not want to understand the point I am trying to make. Nor have you ever answered my question what, in your opinion, is the actual problem the article uncovers? "Another claim with no evidence. Another perfect demonstration of why the quantification in the article is useful." That is just ridiculous. First, just because you throw some numbers or data around, you don't have evidence. In this case, you have data about lines in movies, but not about customer demand for movies of various properties (for example). Second, it is still possible to have a conversation without an Excel sheet in the background. You also don't seem to be interested enough in my argument to do your own research. I actually did google a bit on the model thing, but the first hits were about male models earning less than female models. Finding actual numbers of employed models and the exposure they get would have taken longer. It simply didn't seem worth it for an example, given that I am not campaigning for model rights or anything. Maybe I would have even made that effort, but the model, as well as the women's magazines, are actually just an example. I clearly stated that. They are meant as a thought experiment. Unless you are convinced that there is no industry on earth dominated by women (are you?), it doesn't matter if in one particular example the numbers add up, because by magic of armchair thinking, you could just pick another example to clarify the concept. Or let's assume no industry on earth is dominated by women. You could STILL make a thought experiment and think of some theoretical industry where women dominate, to try to understand the point. If you have at least a shred of imagination, that is. I am not going to repeat the point I was trying to make, as you seem to be not interested in understanding it (not even accepting it, just understanding it). Should my estimate of your motivation be wrong, ask away and I'll try to clarify. Otherwise, why not end the discussion here.

tomlock 11y ago
Without your ellipses it doesn't come across as a literal statement: "The prevailing theme: white men dominate movie roles." That is not equivalent to "White men dominate movie roles." The prevailing theme of the shit Hollywood is getting is that white men dominate movie roles. How can you look at yourself as a reliable source when you need to chop up quotes so needlessly? Interestingly, even given your massacring of quotes, you seem totally willing to conduct thought experiments, and use the results (lol) of your thought experiments to accuse articles of being useless. Without quantification, in the words of the article "it’s all rhetoric and no data, which gets us nowhere in terms of having an informed discussion." Unfortunately, you seem absolutely convinced that the burden lies on me to provide proof, that meets your standards, for claims you make from thought experiments, that aren't addressed or even mentioned in the article. As I said very early on, I encourage you to do some quantifiable analysis.
- facepalm 11y ago
  Huh, you blame me for not providing data, but you don't want to provide data yourself? I don't understand your comment on my quotes of the article. They clearly set out to show in what ways white men dominate movie roles. My quote didn't distort that statement at all - I only chopped it up to make the quote shorter. You still haven't answered what you consider to be the use of the article? What are we even talking about? What data ("quantifiable analysis") do you want me to provide? I don't understand you. Thought experiments aren't useless, and data isn't automatically useful. You seem to be blinded by the presentation of the article (has charts and data, seems legit). It's like trusting a person because they dress like a physician - understandable human flaw, but misguided.
  - tomlock 11y ago
    I'm not dismissing a quantified claim without evidence, so why would I provide data? Interestingly, after the phrase you quoted out of context, they don't mention race again. Also they clearly aimed to discuss the claims made against Hollywood in a quantified manner. You are clearly just assuming that they had an agenda. Could you provide any quantifiable analysis for your claim: "What matters is that all demographics get to see the films they like. It doesn't hurt one demographic if another demographic has more films made for." Unfortunately you seem blinded by a high opinion of your own opinions. I trust the article more than I trust your armchair assumptions.