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Lets look at this in terms of resources. For years, Germans worked hard making things and Greeks reaped the benefits of German labor via imports. Now Greece is

Lets look at this in terms of resources. For years, Germans worked hard making things and Greeks reaped the benefits of German labor via imports. Now Greece is unable to make enough things for themselves, and Germans are bailing them out. The bailout results in Germans making more things which then get shipped to Greece. How is this not a gift from Germany to Greece? Will the Greeks ever provide goods and services to Germany which exceed what the Germans gave them? If so, when?

yequalsx 11y ago
For years German and French banks gave massive amounts of cheap credit to Greeks and the Greek government. The so called bailout is nothing more than the German government giving money to Greece with strings attached so that Greece can then give the money to German banks. The banks don't pay for their bad loans. The Germans benefitted from the euro and the imbalances that monetary union has created. Greeks suffer for their dumb loans but not the German bankers.
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  I'm sure numbers in a bank computer might change. Who cares? In terms of goods and services, how does any of this benefit the Germans or French?
  - yequalsx 11y ago
    Nice how you ignore the fact that in the two party interaction of giving/getting a loan one party is bailed out and the other made to pay for the foolish loan. Flood a market with cheap credit and people, corporations, governments take it. Banks are just as at fault. You also ignore the incredible imbalance caused by the monetary union.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      I'm not ignoring it. I think the effects are terrible - Germans work so efficiently producing goods and services for others to consume and never get to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
      - yequalsx 11y ago
        You are ignoring the fact that banks are at least as culpable for the bad loans to Greece as the Greeks are. Yet only one party is truly suffering the consequences. There is no gift to Greece. The so called bailout comes with onerous terms and is nothing more than the German government giving money to it's banks via the Greek government. German bankers are not made to pay for their profligacy. Also, clearly the Germans do reap the benefits of their labor. It's hard to argue otherwise given their GDP per capita, purchasing power parity, standard of living, and relative power in Europe. Germany needs a monetary union so that it can be the exporter it is. The import/export imbalances caused by the monetary union has led to the situation Greece and Germany find themselves in. Both parties are at fault.
        yummyfajitas 11y ago
        You keep trying to bring the topic back to numbers in a computer rather than physical goods and services. Why? Also, clearly the Germans do reap the benefits of their labor. Blatantly false. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade You even acknowledge this one sentence later: "Germany needs a monetary union so that it can be the exporter it is." I agree that the Germany government is, in part, responsible for policies that make Germans poorer and Greeks richer. So what? It seems like you want to blame Germany since unfortunately the only solution for the Greeks is for the Germans to keep sending them even more stuff (even though the Germans didn't make the Greeks unproductive).
  - barking 11y ago
    The ECB sets interest rates to suit Germany because it is the economic monster in the EU. So if Germany needs low interest rates to stimulate the economy, the eurozone gets them even countries whose economies are in danger of overheating. This is what happened to some degree in the early noughties. Cheap loans in Europe both boosted German exports and contributed to the later recession in the countries worst affected. And as for breaking the eurozone rules, well even Germany did that when it suited them. I am not an expert on the Greek economy but I'd imagine that tourism makes up a lot of their 'exports'. Otherwise I don't know. They are a relatively small country and so are unlikely have many indigenous multi-national brands that you or I would have heard of.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Interest rates are numbers in a computer. As far as real resources, you seem to agree with me that the Germans worked hard to make stuff that was then sent out of Germany ("boosted German exports"). Germans work, Greeks consume. I guess when the British empire stole stuff overseas for consumption in Britain, that was bad for Britain and good for the world? If production is good and consumption is bad, maybe we can tax the poor and make them work but give the proceeds to the rich?
wutangson1 11y ago
Yeah, yours is a laughably simplistic analysis: the good/hard-working Germans vs lavish-spending Greeks. For someone so focused on 'resources', you ignore the basic economic tenant- "supply equals demand". German/EU banks lent money to Greece and other EU countries so their would be a market for Germany to sell its wares. Hate to break it to you, but Germany was being artificially propped up as a heavy industry power house. How else do you think VW, Opel, Daimler, and makers of defective submarines could employ such 'hardworking' German worker bees to sell those products abroad?

yequalsx 11y ago

For years German and French banks gave massive amounts of cheap credit to Greeks and the Greek government. The so called bailout is nothing more than the German government giving money to Greece with strings attached so that Greece can then give the money to German banks. The banks don't pay for their bad loans. The Germans benefitted from the euro and the imbalances that monetary union has created. Greeks suffer for their dumb loans but not the German bankers.

yummyfajitas 11y ago
I'm sure numbers in a bank computer might change. Who cares? In terms of goods and services, how does any of this benefit the Germans or French?
- yequalsx 11y ago
  Nice how you ignore the fact that in the two party interaction of giving/getting a loan one party is bailed out and the other made to pay for the foolish loan. Flood a market with cheap credit and people, corporations, governments take it. Banks are just as at fault. You also ignore the incredible imbalance caused by the monetary union.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    I'm not ignoring it. I think the effects are terrible - Germans work so efficiently producing goods and services for others to consume and never get to enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
    - yequalsx 11y ago
      You are ignoring the fact that banks are at least as culpable for the bad loans to Greece as the Greeks are. Yet only one party is truly suffering the consequences. There is no gift to Greece. The so called bailout comes with onerous terms and is nothing more than the German government giving money to it's banks via the Greek government. German bankers are not made to pay for their profligacy. Also, clearly the Germans do reap the benefits of their labor. It's hard to argue otherwise given their GDP per capita, purchasing power parity, standard of living, and relative power in Europe. Germany needs a monetary union so that it can be the exporter it is. The import/export imbalances caused by the monetary union has led to the situation Greece and Germany find themselves in. Both parties are at fault.
      - yummyfajitas 11y ago
        You keep trying to bring the topic back to numbers in a computer rather than physical goods and services. Why? Also, clearly the Germans do reap the benefits of their labor. Blatantly false. http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/germany/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/balance-of-trade You even acknowledge this one sentence later: "Germany needs a monetary union so that it can be the exporter it is." I agree that the Germany government is, in part, responsible for policies that make Germans poorer and Greeks richer. So what? It seems like you want to blame Germany since unfortunately the only solution for the Greeks is for the Germans to keep sending them even more stuff (even though the Germans didn't make the Greeks unproductive).
- barking 11y ago
  The ECB sets interest rates to suit Germany because it is the economic monster in the EU. So if Germany needs low interest rates to stimulate the economy, the eurozone gets them even countries whose economies are in danger of overheating. This is what happened to some degree in the early noughties. Cheap loans in Europe both boosted German exports and contributed to the later recession in the countries worst affected. And as for breaking the eurozone rules, well even Germany did that when it suited them. I am not an expert on the Greek economy but I'd imagine that tourism makes up a lot of their 'exports'. Otherwise I don't know. They are a relatively small country and so are unlikely have many indigenous multi-national brands that you or I would have heard of.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Interest rates are numbers in a computer. As far as real resources, you seem to agree with me that the Germans worked hard to make stuff that was then sent out of Germany ("boosted German exports"). Germans work, Greeks consume. I guess when the British empire stole stuff overseas for consumption in Britain, that was bad for Britain and good for the world? If production is good and consumption is bad, maybe we can tax the poor and make them work but give the proceeds to the rich?

wutangson1 11y ago

Yeah, yours is a laughably simplistic analysis: the good/hard-working Germans vs lavish-spending Greeks. For someone so focused on 'resources', you ignore the basic economic tenant- "supply equals demand". German/EU banks lent money to Greece and other EU countries so their would be a market for Germany to sell its wares. Hate to break it to you, but Germany was being artificially propped up as a heavy industry power house. How else do you think VW, Opel, Daimler, and makers of defective submarines could employ such 'hardworking' German worker bees to sell those products abroad?