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Ugh, this thread is disgusting. The problem is complex and takes no sides. The poor are unskilled with money because of their environment, upbringing, relation

Ugh, this thread is disgusting. The problem is complex and takes no sides. The poor are unskilled with money because of their environment, upbringing, relationships, and situation; and also because of inherent features. The rich are rich because of their luck, circumstances, upbringing, and situation; and also because of inherent features. The combinations of all of those factors and the interaction between them defines the problem, not any one aspect. This you must understand first. So yes, absolutely, one of the problems of poverty is that it's profitable to other people; because the poor are powerless to stop it, and the rich are powerful and easily take advantage to the extent they can under their laws and morals. That is the reality, and arguing otherwise reveals our collective immaturity in terms of understanding systems and complexity—the true root cause of our unfair and unbalanced society. Instead of seeing reality, we are often limited by our human capacity and biases that don't help us understand the world—much less respond to in a constructive way. So let's talk about the systems that influence us all—the article is about one of those systemic problems, and it's fascinating and evidential. It's a good discussion, and it's the right one to have, and I'm always sad that discussions of poverty or inequality devolve into talk of individuals and what they should or should not do. Let's keep our eye on the ball and talk about the whole, and the productive construction of a society that works better.

MonadQueen 11y ago
Ugh. You're disgusting. Thanks for judging all of us.
llamataboot 11y ago
I find that Americans are still woefully illiterate when it comes to understanding not only how systems and structures shape outcomes, but also shape selves/consciousness. The myth of the separate individual self is arguably pretty deeply embedded across the West, but when I go to Greece for example, there is no across the board denial of the effects of systems and structures, partially because they have become impossible to ignore for the majority of the populace, but also because the United States is still a deeply religious and irrational country (in very good and bad ways) and one of its religions (perhaps its greatest) is the religion of the "Free Individual". There is also something about an empathic gap that exists primarily because of both the way poverty is racialized in the United States, but also in how it is /spatialized/. Poor people are seen as the other, because they are the other -- it is very rare that a city in the United States has places where people of all classes (and all races) mingle together. There is much less "public space" in the US as a whole (exception, a city like NYC where literally everyone rides the subway together, even if they are going to different stops) so it is much easier to rationalize systemic outcomes as some kind of inherent failure of the other.
bpchaps 11y ago
Agreed. I do some minor parking ticket civic work in Chicago and found that when talking about things like painfully misleading signs, the painfully overwhelming response is, "We shouldn't protect the dumb. It's not my fault they can't read a sign. They deserve that 100 dollar fine. it's too expensive to replace that sign." The last one's the most depressing of all, considering the particular sign I'm talking about racked up 800k in fines for half a block since 2009. It's painfully demotivating and depressing that so many folk think this way. I'm at a complete loss of words when people talk like that. Where's the empathy for your fellow man?

MonadQueen 11y ago

Ugh. You're disgusting. Thanks for judging all of us.

llamataboot 11y ago

I find that Americans are still woefully illiterate when it comes to understanding not only how systems and structures shape outcomes, but also shape selves/consciousness. The myth of the separate individual self is arguably pretty deeply embedded across the West, but when I go to Greece for example, there is no across the board denial of the effects of systems and structures, partially because they have become impossible to ignore for the majority of the populace, but also because the United States is still a deeply religious and irrational country (in very good and bad ways) and one of its religions (perhaps its greatest) is the religion of the "Free Individual". There is also something about an empathic gap that exists primarily because of both the way poverty is racialized in the United States, but also in how it is /spatialized/. Poor people are seen as the other, because they are the other -- it is very rare that a city in the United States has places where people of all classes (and all races) mingle together. There is much less "public space" in the US as a whole (exception, a city like NYC where literally everyone rides the subway together, even if they are going to different stops) so it is much easier to rationalize systemic outcomes as some kind of inherent failure of the other.

bpchaps 11y ago

Agreed. I do some minor parking ticket civic work in Chicago and found that when talking about things like painfully misleading signs, the painfully overwhelming response is, "We shouldn't protect the dumb. It's not my fault they can't read a sign. They deserve that 100 dollar fine. it's too expensive to replace that sign." The last one's the most depressing of all, considering the particular sign I'm talking about racked up 800k in fines for half a block since 2009. It's painfully demotivating and depressing that so many folk think this way. I'm at a complete loss of words when people talk like that. Where's the empathy for your fellow man?