6 ms·

"At least some of the activism is motivated by fear, when people notice this or that smaller problem, get very scared by warnings of much bigger problems to com

"At least some of the activism is motivated by fear, when people notice this or that smaller problem, get very scared by warnings of much bigger problems to come, and make the not-completely-rational choice to give up freedom for the promise of safety. " And just what "freedoms" are we talking about here? Please elaborate so we can mock your argument a little more thoroughly. -----

guscost 11y ago
The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?
- mikeash 11y ago
  I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land. Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water. For reasons I don't understand, the "property rights and personal freedom" crowd usually (though certainly not always) thinks the freedom to pollute outweighs the freedom not to have your property polluted.
  - guscost 11y ago
    > I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land. Yet drilling an oil well is currently illegal on a lot of private land in the US. > Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water. Air and water pollution are regulated separately by another group. I don't have any problem with this kind of regulation unless it gets out of hand (classifying CO2 as pollution for example).
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Why is preventing you from putting CO2 into other people's air "out of hand," and not common sense property rights?
      - guscost 11y ago
        Because we do it every time we exhale. Criminalizing breathing (or any policy that could be interpreted as such in the future) is way beyond "out of hand", it's the lowest form of fascist garbage I've ever seen during my time in America.
        mikeash 11y ago
        CO2 regulations no more criminalize breathing than noise ordinances do. The quantities involved are vastly different.
- ocschwar 11y ago
  In this country, you can't do that without a drilling permit, because of several concerns: 1. Soil subsidence. 2. The well casing can break, causing migration of oil, gas, and other pollutants to neighboring wells. 3. You over-pumping your well, drawing oil from under neighboring lands. 4. Releases of gas and natural gas liquids into the air. So now if instead of having to comply with intense drilling regulation about drilling, owing to the rights of other citizens, you are told not to drill at all, this makes our country an authoritarian tyranny? Can you try offering an argument that passes the giggle test?
  - guscost 11y ago
    You acknowledge that in NY land owners were previously allowed to obtain a drilling permit after following the proper procedure, and this freedom has been taken away?
    - ocschwar 11y ago
      The freedom to drill wells both for fossil fuels and for water is regulated for legitimate reasons, and can sometimes be taken away when new concerns arise. (E.g. fracking fluid mishandling incidents, bad well casings, earthquakes, et cetera.) Again, try to explain why this turns our country into an authoritarian hellhole, and try to do it in a fashion that passes the giggle test.
- bluthru 11y ago
  >The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. Just because a plot of land is in the name of someone doesn't give them the right to harm others.

guscost 11y ago

The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. And by the way, I'm very used to "not being treated with respect" from the opposition on this topic. Usually they aren't so eager to keep mentioning it, though. What's the deal?

mikeash 11y ago
I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land. Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water. For reasons I don't understand, the "property rights and personal freedom" crowd usually (though certainly not always) thinks the freedom to pollute outweighs the freedom not to have your property polluted.
- guscost 11y ago
  > I see nothing wrong with drilling an oil well on your own land. Yet drilling an oil well is currently illegal on a lot of private land in the US. > Where we have a problem is when you start spreading that oil, or stuff derived from it, in my air and water. Air and water pollution are regulated separately by another group. I don't have any problem with this kind of regulation unless it gets out of hand (classifying CO2 as pollution for example).
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Why is preventing you from putting CO2 into other people's air "out of hand," and not common sense property rights?
    - guscost 11y ago
      Because we do it every time we exhale. Criminalizing breathing (or any policy that could be interpreted as such in the future) is way beyond "out of hand", it's the lowest form of fascist garbage I've ever seen during my time in America.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        CO2 regulations no more criminalize breathing than noise ordinances do. The quantities involved are vastly different.
ocschwar 11y ago
In this country, you can't do that without a drilling permit, because of several concerns: 1. Soil subsidence. 2. The well casing can break, causing migration of oil, gas, and other pollutants to neighboring wells. 3. You over-pumping your well, drawing oil from under neighboring lands. 4. Releases of gas and natural gas liquids into the air. So now if instead of having to comply with intense drilling regulation about drilling, owing to the rights of other citizens, you are told not to drill at all, this makes our country an authoritarian tyranny? Can you try offering an argument that passes the giggle test?
- guscost 11y ago
  You acknowledge that in NY land owners were previously allowed to obtain a drilling permit after following the proper procedure, and this freedom has been taken away?
  - ocschwar 11y ago
    The freedom to drill wells both for fossil fuels and for water is regulated for legitimate reasons, and can sometimes be taken away when new concerns arise. (E.g. fracking fluid mishandling incidents, bad well casings, earthquakes, et cetera.) Again, try to explain why this turns our country into an authoritarian hellhole, and try to do it in a fashion that passes the giggle test.
bluthru 11y ago
>The freedom to drill an oil well on land you own, for example. Just because a plot of land is in the name of someone doesn't give them the right to harm others.