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Balance of power. Employers have it, employees do not. If companies and employers treated their workers with dignity and respect no unions would be necessary.

Balance of power. Employers have it, employees do not. If companies and employers treated their workers with dignity and respect no unions would be necessary. * I'm sure you are familiar with how collective bargaining power works and how it can be used for good or ill. It is because of the actions of worker unions that people today enjoy many rights that they take for granted. You, personally, have benefited greatly from union movements through the ages. In fact, the creation of the so called "middle-class" worldwide can be directly attributed to worker union agitation. In many ways unions have created the world we live in. As the middle class produced the consumers corporates depend on. To me, these are all excellent and worthwhile side-effects. Today you can witness the slow destruction of the middle class again, as capitalism looses its way and degenerates into corporate fascism. Programming is a "incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field" ? Compared to what ? Investment banker ? Oil rig worker ? Corporate management ? Chartered Accountant ? I do believe unionizing will significantly raise wages, historically they have. * (apologies for the little rant, I'm leaving it in as it amuses me)

sokoloff 11y ago
I don't really see a rant, so no worries there. > Programming is a "incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field" ? Compared to what ? High leverage compared to: 1. Any job where labor is roughly proportional to output. Want twice as many cars in the same period? You're going to employ roughly twice as many people. Want twice as many Starbucks? Roughly twice as many baristas. Want to sell twice as much software or have twice as many subscribers to your SaaS company's offerings? You might need 0-10% more programmers to support 100% growth. Highly lucrative field compared to (all figures 2014): 1. Median household wages in the US of $53,567. 2. Median household wages in CA of $60487, in MA of $63,151, in NY of $54,310. I don't know any full-time industry programmers who are working for less than the median household income; that's before any income from other sources or other household members. We're paying fresh college grads around the 70-75th percentile of US household income (again, as individuals). Those signs don't point me towards the idea that programmers are an oppressed class desperately in need of unionization. > I do believe unionizing will significantly raise wages, historically they have. Are there examples of such highly paid professions unionizing? Did wages rise afterwards? (It's a genuine question; I can't think of any highly paid professions that are overwhelmingly [or even typically] union.)
- capote 11y ago
  I have to agree, programmers unionizing would seem a bit… "spoiled" to me. I've never had any issues negotiating or getting underpaid. The bulk of the issues described under this post actually seem to have nothing to do with pay, but rather with high-pressure work environments and simply getting fired (which in the field of programming, comparatively, is not the end of the world—if you're competent that is).
martin1975 11y ago
That's exactly the gist of unionization. Balance. No one is saying keep deadbeats around, nor can any enterprise be sustained by heroic efforts of a few very talented and hardworking individuals from within. It is an endless game of punishing greed while rewarding individual effort. Promulgating a win/lose attitude inevitably ends with the kind of status quo we have today in some, but hopefully not all companies US and worldwide. I don't know when or where this inflection point is yet, but by the looks of it, it's already present. Best thing an individual can do for now is draw up boundaries you aren't willing to cross... or have crossed, and never draw these in isolation of your kin. Talk, share, organize and roll with the punches... The cavalry isn't coming and sure as hell your momma isn't gonna do it for you.

sokoloff 11y ago

I don't really see a rant, so no worries there. > Programming is a "incredibly high leverage and highly lucrative field" ? Compared to what ? High leverage compared to: 1. Any job where labor is roughly proportional to output. Want twice as many cars in the same period? You're going to employ roughly twice as many people. Want twice as many Starbucks? Roughly twice as many baristas. Want to sell twice as much software or have twice as many subscribers to your SaaS company's offerings? You might need 0-10% more programmers to support 100% growth. Highly lucrative field compared to (all figures 2014): 1. Median household wages in the US of $53,567. 2. Median household wages in CA of $60487, in MA of $63,151, in NY of $54,310. I don't know any full-time industry programmers who are working for less than the median household income; that's before any income from other sources or other household members. We're paying fresh college grads around the 70-75th percentile of US household income (again, as individuals). Those signs don't point me towards the idea that programmers are an oppressed class desperately in need of unionization. > I do believe unionizing will significantly raise wages, historically they have. Are there examples of such highly paid professions unionizing? Did wages rise afterwards? (It's a genuine question; I can't think of any highly paid professions that are overwhelmingly [or even typically] union.)

capote 11y ago
I have to agree, programmers unionizing would seem a bit… "spoiled" to me. I've never had any issues negotiating or getting underpaid. The bulk of the issues described under this post actually seem to have nothing to do with pay, but rather with high-pressure work environments and simply getting fired (which in the field of programming, comparatively, is not the end of the world—if you're competent that is).

martin1975 11y ago

That's exactly the gist of unionization. Balance. No one is saying keep deadbeats around, nor can any enterprise be sustained by heroic efforts of a few very talented and hardworking individuals from within. It is an endless game of punishing greed while rewarding individual effort. Promulgating a win/lose attitude inevitably ends with the kind of status quo we have today in some, but hopefully not all companies US and worldwide. I don't know when or where this inflection point is yet, but by the looks of it, it's already present. Best thing an individual can do for now is draw up boundaries you aren't willing to cross... or have crossed, and never draw these in isolation of your kin. Talk, share, organize and roll with the punches... The cavalry isn't coming and sure as hell your momma isn't gonna do it for you.