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Basic income doesn't solve this problem. I've worked with several executives who get to decide how much they want to "appear" to make in the United States -- al

by MrTonyD 11y ago

Basic income doesn't solve this problem. I've worked with several executives who get to decide how much they want to "appear" to make in the United States -- all the rest is hidden offshore in stocks. The stocks they own have a very low "face value" -- since their value is set by transfers from other offshore stocks set up in a maze through different countries (so the Panama revelations won't catch them.) I have literally worked with executives hiding billions. Basic income does absolutely nothing to solve the problem of opaque financial instruments (derivatives, trusts, non-profits, and charities are also used to make money disappear. But mazes of offshores seems to be preferred by the rich people I have worked with - they are legal and well understood by all the big accounting firms.) It would be very easy to make holding such stock illegal. And, considering the cost to our society and our world, any downsides would be outweighed by the incredible gain.

ageek123 11y ago
Doesn't solve what problem? It doesn't solve the "problem" of some people being very rich, but it does solve the problem of some people being too poor to meet minimal daily needs.
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  A guaranteed income solves the income problem -- but that shouldn't be conflated with the causes of that problem that it solves. The massive income inequality, which is arguably an underlying cause of the problem, requires different solutions. Ironically, by correctly solving income inequality it may obviate the need for a guaranteed income - since other solutions may have that as a side effect.
jensen123 11y ago
> It would be very easy to make holding such stock illegal. Really? I think the USA already has many laws in place to make offshore tax evasion harder. These laws also have the effect of making it very hard for Americans to do (honest) financial stuff in other countries. For example, you want to buy a second home in another country, and maybe open a bank account there to take care of related bills? Or maybe you see some great investment opportunities in another country and want to open a brokerage account there, to buy some ordinary shares? Well, because of the laws already in place, many foreign banks don't want to deal with you, because complying with these laws is such a hassle. Well, I guess maybe it would be worthwhile for them if you were a billionaire. Also, you might end up with a tax bill of more than 100% of your gains back in the USA, if you're not careful.
- codewaffle 11y ago
  It doesn't matter how hard you make tax evasion - if it's possible, then those with resources to spare will be able to game it, and those without will suffer.
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  It has been a standard practice to discourage tax laws by making them apply to everyone equally. But there is really no reason for that to be the case. Perhaps I have the advantage of having worked on Big Data problems with the NSA, and we live in a time when it is possible to write laws that allow people like you and me to have almost no "red tape" associated with our financial transactions. So, while I agree with your observations, I know that they are also a tactic used by the rich.
hippich 11y ago
Since it appears you have first-hand experience, could you please explain what long term purpose of this hiding assets is? Do they just enjoy keeping it all to themselves, or they plan to pass on wealth to their kins, or something else? Because as I see it right now, all that money sheltered effectively removed from US economy and as a result makes everyone a bit richer via deflation... Unless I am missing something.
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  They pay no taxes on any of the money. And they can still spend it offshore if they spend it from one of the offshore accounts "lower in the maze" of accounts. Also, products haven't been priced based on production costs for a long time -- a part of strategy is creating "effective monopolies" based on distribution channels, geographies, product mixes, and making such arrangements in conjunction with theoretical competitors, so the pricing is unfair and the unfairness is hidden (and the co-conspirators are paid off by purchasing offshore stocks which are designed to provide "pay offs") These are all things I have seen -- most of them more than once. So these accounts also facilitate pricing and strategies that are used to undermine our society -- and not just tax evasion.

by MrTonyD 11y ago

ageek123 11y ago

Doesn't solve what problem? It doesn't solve the "problem" of some people being very rich, but it does solve the problem of some people being too poor to meet minimal daily needs.

MrTonyD 11y ago
A guaranteed income solves the income problem -- but that shouldn't be conflated with the causes of that problem that it solves. The massive income inequality, which is arguably an underlying cause of the problem, requires different solutions. Ironically, by correctly solving income inequality it may obviate the need for a guaranteed income - since other solutions may have that as a side effect.

jensen123 11y ago

> It would be very easy to make holding such stock illegal. Really? I think the USA already has many laws in place to make offshore tax evasion harder. These laws also have the effect of making it very hard for Americans to do (honest) financial stuff in other countries. For example, you want to buy a second home in another country, and maybe open a bank account there to take care of related bills? Or maybe you see some great investment opportunities in another country and want to open a brokerage account there, to buy some ordinary shares? Well, because of the laws already in place, many foreign banks don't want to deal with you, because complying with these laws is such a hassle. Well, I guess maybe it would be worthwhile for them if you were a billionaire. Also, you might end up with a tax bill of more than 100% of your gains back in the USA, if you're not careful.

codewaffle 11y ago
It doesn't matter how hard you make tax evasion - if it's possible, then those with resources to spare will be able to game it, and those without will suffer.
MrTonyD 11y ago
It has been a standard practice to discourage tax laws by making them apply to everyone equally. But there is really no reason for that to be the case. Perhaps I have the advantage of having worked on Big Data problems with the NSA, and we live in a time when it is possible to write laws that allow people like you and me to have almost no "red tape" associated with our financial transactions. So, while I agree with your observations, I know that they are also a tactic used by the rich.

hippich 11y ago

Since it appears you have first-hand experience, could you please explain what long term purpose of this hiding assets is? Do they just enjoy keeping it all to themselves, or they plan to pass on wealth to their kins, or something else? Because as I see it right now, all that money sheltered effectively removed from US economy and as a result makes everyone a bit richer via deflation... Unless I am missing something.

MrTonyD 11y ago
They pay no taxes on any of the money. And they can still spend it offshore if they spend it from one of the offshore accounts "lower in the maze" of accounts. Also, products haven't been priced based on production costs for a long time -- a part of strategy is creating "effective monopolies" based on distribution channels, geographies, product mixes, and making such arrangements in conjunction with theoretical competitors, so the pricing is unfair and the unfairness is hidden (and the co-conspirators are paid off by purchasing offshore stocks which are designed to provide "pay offs") These are all things I have seen -- most of them more than once. So these accounts also facilitate pricing and strategies that are used to undermine our society -- and not just tax evasion.