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Chris you're right Dan misconstrues your ideas and that's disappointing. The real issue with his article is that he was lying to himself before he even joined

Chris you're right Dan misconstrues your ideas and that's disappointing. The real issue with his article is that he was lying to himself before he even joined Hubspot. I'm really surprised how shocked people are when they join startups and aren't happy. What did you expect? Hubspot is not Salesforce. Uber is not Google. DoorDash is not Groupon. The maturity of companies at different stages varies significantly. I read articles on HN every month about people who are bamboozled about startups after they start working there. These same people delude themselves about how awesome startups are. Startups are the birth of companies.In the beginning and up until you reach a certain point of market dominance, it's always hard. It's been this way for years and yet people continue to write articles about this nonsense every month...I'm really tired of it.

manigandham 11y ago
> I'm really surprised how shocked people are when they join startups and aren't happy. What did you expect? The life-stage of a company rarely has much to do with the working conditions, cult/culture weirdness or how well the business is run. There are plenty of great startups that are very solid companies that anyone would be happy to work for. Blanket hate of "startups" doesn't make much sense. Also none of the companies you mentioned are "startups" anymore either, incorrectly applying that label to every company doesn't help.
braythwayt 11y ago
> he was lying to himself > delude themselves about how awesome startups are > people continue to write articles about this nonsense every month You seem to be unrelentingly "blaming the victims." Obviously, it is to people's benefit to have the most realistic expectations possible about companies they join. But does that in any way absolve employers of making realistic representations of what employees can expect? Does that absolve people in management positions from behaving with decency and fairness? When two cars collide, sometimes both parties are at fault, "blame" is often a positive-sum game. It would be fair to hand out as much opprobrium and vituperation for the employers in these situations as the employees.
- argonaut 11y ago
  This is Dan Lyons we're talking about. Not some naive fresh-out-of-school CS grad. Dan Lyons spent more than a decade and a half as a journalist and editor covering tech, business, and startups.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    I'm genuinely curious how this is relevant.
    - ommunist 11y ago
      This means he will write anything that will bring his name on top of the shitpile. Journalism is the second most ancient profession.
    - argonaut 11y ago
      The grandparent said: "I'm really surprised how shocked people are when they join startups and aren't happy. What did you expect?" The parent said: "You seem to be unrelentingly "blaming the victims." I'm pointing out that some degree of "blaming Dan Lyons" is in order. He's a sophisticated tech insider. It's as if a professional investor lost all his/her money on a private company that claimed to be a great company in its press releases, after which the investor complains about getting screwed. Yes, the investment is partly to blame for being so shitty. But the professional investor is a "sophisticated investor" and is also partly to blame for his/her own loss. I would be more sympathetic to someone getting screwed by HubSpot if they were a fresh college grad who got misled and didn't know better.
- morgante 11y ago
  Nothing that I've read from Dan Lyons shows HubSpot actually misrepresenting their work environment. In fact, it seems abundantly clear that they put a lot of effort into explaining their work environment and philosophy (would Lyons have preferred that they not have a training program?). All in all, it seems like they had grossly mismatched expectations. Lyons clearly thought HubSpot would magically twist itself to match his desires for a traditional workspace, while HubSpot apparently thought Lyons might be slightly adaptable. In a just world, they'd both chalk it up to an experiment gone wrong. Of course, Lyons is a journalist with an ax to grind so he'll make hay off that failed experiment.
mcguire 11y ago
Hubspot is not a startup. Uber is not a technology company. I have no idea what DoorDash is, but Groupon was silly.

manigandham 11y ago

> I'm really surprised how shocked people are when they join startups and aren't happy. What did you expect? The life-stage of a company rarely has much to do with the working conditions, cult/culture weirdness or how well the business is run. There are plenty of great startups that are very solid companies that anyone would be happy to work for. Blanket hate of "startups" doesn't make much sense. Also none of the companies you mentioned are "startups" anymore either, incorrectly applying that label to every company doesn't help.

braythwayt 11y ago

> he was lying to himself > delude themselves about how awesome startups are > people continue to write articles about this nonsense every month You seem to be unrelentingly "blaming the victims." Obviously, it is to people's benefit to have the most realistic expectations possible about companies they join. But does that in any way absolve employers of making realistic representations of what employees can expect? Does that absolve people in management positions from behaving with decency and fairness? When two cars collide, sometimes both parties are at fault, "blame" is often a positive-sum game. It would be fair to hand out as much opprobrium and vituperation for the employers in these situations as the employees.

argonaut 11y ago
This is Dan Lyons we're talking about. Not some naive fresh-out-of-school CS grad. Dan Lyons spent more than a decade and a half as a journalist and editor covering tech, business, and startups.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  I'm genuinely curious how this is relevant.
  - ommunist 11y ago
    This means he will write anything that will bring his name on top of the shitpile. Journalism is the second most ancient profession.
  - argonaut 11y ago
    The grandparent said: "I'm really surprised how shocked people are when they join startups and aren't happy. What did you expect?" The parent said: "You seem to be unrelentingly "blaming the victims." I'm pointing out that some degree of "blaming Dan Lyons" is in order. He's a sophisticated tech insider. It's as if a professional investor lost all his/her money on a private company that claimed to be a great company in its press releases, after which the investor complains about getting screwed. Yes, the investment is partly to blame for being so shitty. But the professional investor is a "sophisticated investor" and is also partly to blame for his/her own loss. I would be more sympathetic to someone getting screwed by HubSpot if they were a fresh college grad who got misled and didn't know better.
morgante 11y ago
Nothing that I've read from Dan Lyons shows HubSpot actually misrepresenting their work environment. In fact, it seems abundantly clear that they put a lot of effort into explaining their work environment and philosophy (would Lyons have preferred that they not have a training program?). All in all, it seems like they had grossly mismatched expectations. Lyons clearly thought HubSpot would magically twist itself to match his desires for a traditional workspace, while HubSpot apparently thought Lyons might be slightly adaptable. In a just world, they'd both chalk it up to an experiment gone wrong. Of course, Lyons is a journalist with an ax to grind so he'll make hay off that failed experiment.

mcguire 11y ago

Hubspot is not a startup. Uber is not a technology company. I have no idea what DoorDash is, but Groupon was silly.