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> in America people mostly make their own luck. That's clearly not the case. Off the top of my head, success depends heavily on the neighborhood and family you

> in America people mostly make their own luck. That's clearly not the case. Off the top of my head, success depends heavily on the neighborhood and family you are born into. Are your parents divorced, in prison, are they alchoholics, do they teach you values and education, do they abuse you, do they rear you at all, can they afford food, electricity, or college? Does the school in your zip code have books the classrooms? Are you going to get shot in the streets, do your friends sell drugs? Is it a wealthy suburban school where 90% go to college, a poor urban one where 90% are literate?

WalterBright 11y ago
I expected to be downvoted with that comment. It doesn't fit the usual narrative. But I have some karma to burn, and feel like burning it in a good cause :-) The fact is, if you are able-bodied, you do have choices. I won't repeat what I've posted elsewhere in this thread. I'll just add that in my life I've noticed a consistent pattern. People who take responsibility for their choices do much better than people who always blame others, fate, whatever. And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history. There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here.
- hackuser 11y ago
  Walter - I've given you some of that karma by upvoting you many times. It seems like you are the one relying on a 'usual narrative', that you just have to work hard. How do you square that with the data, the outcomes that wealthy kids are so much more successful? How about that they get into college at such higher rates at age 18? Why would poor kids be any lazier than wealthy ones? > And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history. Not to nitpick, but at least some resesarch says that social mobility is higher now in Europe. I also suspect it was higher in the U.S. in the 90's, when there were more social services and education (not to mention health care and housing) cost much less. > There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here. Net illegal immigration with Mexico is now negative, at least last I saw (that is, more are returning than entering the U.S.). Also, illegal immigrants often come from places that are much poorer than the United States.
  - WalterBright 11y ago
    > that you just have to work hard. I've tried to make it very clear in this thread that it is not at all about "just working hard". It's about working smart, i.e. making choices. To know the truth about a country, check if there are walls around a country to keep people in, or walls to keep people out.
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > it is not at all about "just working hard". It's about working smart That doesn't change my point. > To know the truth about a country, check if there are walls around a country to keep people in, or walls to keep people out. A very broad brush on an irrelevant issue (relative economic opportunity between nations) to the problem at hand.

WalterBright 11y ago

I expected to be downvoted with that comment. It doesn't fit the usual narrative. But I have some karma to burn, and feel like burning it in a good cause :-) The fact is, if you are able-bodied, you do have choices. I won't repeat what I've posted elsewhere in this thread. I'll just add that in my life I've noticed a consistent pattern. People who take responsibility for their choices do much better than people who always blame others, fate, whatever. And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history. There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here.

hackuser 11y ago
Walter - I've given you some of that karma by upvoting you many times. It seems like you are the one relying on a 'usual narrative', that you just have to work hard. How do you square that with the data, the outcomes that wealthy kids are so much more successful? How about that they get into college at such higher rates at age 18? Why would poor kids be any lazier than wealthy ones? > And American today has more opportunities for more people than anywhere at anytime in history. Not to nitpick, but at least some resesarch says that social mobility is higher now in Europe. I also suspect it was higher in the U.S. in the 90's, when there were more social services and education (not to mention health care and housing) cost much less. > There's a reason why America has so many illegal immigrants and so many more that want to come here. Net illegal immigration with Mexico is now negative, at least last I saw (that is, more are returning than entering the U.S.). Also, illegal immigrants often come from places that are much poorer than the United States.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  > that you just have to work hard. I've tried to make it very clear in this thread that it is not at all about "just working hard". It's about working smart, i.e. making choices. To know the truth about a country, check if there are walls around a country to keep people in, or walls to keep people out.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > it is not at all about "just working hard". It's about working smart That doesn't change my point. > To know the truth about a country, check if there are walls around a country to keep people in, or walls to keep people out. A very broad brush on an irrelevant issue (relative economic opportunity between nations) to the problem at hand.