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I want to explore another angle of this point I brought up (i mentioned this below for a different point): "What's the point of basic income then if eventually

by hc07 10y ago

I want to explore another angle of this point I brought up (i mentioned this below for a different point): "What's the point of basic income then if eventually tens of thousands of GD is required to buy bread and basic income is only several thousand (point is, not enough to make a difference)? This happens in a sort of way in real life already... Because govt meddle in education loans and subsidies for college, the result isn't just that there are more availability of education only, there's also an ever increasing climb , almost unhooked from reality, of tuition costs. And some people simply stop paying back, which in a way results in a kind of wealth transfer effect like your GD. But the lethal point is that no force stops the inertia from becoming ridiculous. We already see that colleges no longer have incentive to adhere to reality and prices go to the moon. To remain effective, GD BI have to climb, and off we go to the races. Applied to entire economy, you get hyper inflation. Your GD can't distribute fast enough when mass psychology sets in." Another effect is that not only would GD be viral, BI inside this system itself would become viral. Like the college tuition example, over time, this will disintegrate to the point that people who really make a living and earn USD (or any other way to measure real money, not the BI allocation) will be eclipsed. Everything will become like college. There will be nobody left will be able to afford it in full without some kind of help. Either that, or the BI effect and influence Will diminish and we're back to square one. In this sense, I'm back to what I said above. The BI powered by GD is going to become viral on viral. It will destroy the real economy completely, until nothing is left. The structure it's such that they cannot both coexist.

Suncho 10y ago
Another effect is that not only would GD be viral, BI inside this system itself would become viral. By "viral," do you mean "inflationary"? I'm not sure how useful it is to compare student loans to basic income. Student loans have to be paid back. And they can only go toward college, so they cause market distortions that a basic income wouldn't cause. Many of the products and services we use benefit from economy of scale. The more we produce of a particular product, the cheaper it becomes to produce each individual unit. If we give people money to buy more goods, we will scale up to produce more goods to sell to them, which in no way pushes prices higher. A basic income won't, on its own, lead to general price inflation.
- hc07 10y ago
  By "viral," do you mean "inflationary"? Not just inflationary. I mean that the Basic Income inside this system, will seek out and destroy "actual income". It weakens actual income to the point of irrelevance over time, just like what is happening in any govt subsidized fields. Simple inflation driven by growth is arguably a "good thing". But instead we get inflation driven by "free-money" driving out "earned-money", this is almost the worst kind. People who don't need or qualify for BI, who makes money the hard way, will now need to compete with money from BI, or worse, this BI that is in this viral currency. Yes, inflation is the symptom but not the result. Because people spending BI GS don't feel pain (they get it again next cycle, for free), it's the people who actually do the hard work to make non-BI USD that will find that there's less they can buy. I'm not sure how useful it is to compare student loans to basic income...And they can only go toward college, so they cause market distortions that a basic income wouldn't cause. That's a overly bold statement. Not all production can benefit from economy of scale unless we're willing to "factory-ize" everything -- and sometimes we're just.not.willing.to for qualitative reasons. This is the difference between things you can buy in dollar stores vs things that are hard to make cheaper. Try making Child Care more "economy of scale" like; or surgery; or education; Or nursing. If GD can only be used to buy food, or bread. These I can believe these could be made to benefit from economy of scale, but to solve "basic income needs" esp for service intensive things that tends to be "bid up in price" when there's more demand rather than just scale? I think we're back tot he BI vs earned-income competition problem. Student loans have to be paid back. Not entirely true. Between grants, govt loans, and govt-guaranteed loans. There are people who will not be able to pay back the loan+inflation rate (The fact that they might take their whole lives to pay the remaining amount isn't relevant). The delta essentially means the govt have given "free money" into the system. Although it won't be the full amount. In that effect, it acts like a BI. Even if you take into account govt debt... If you stretch out maturity to something really long, like 30 years. Inside the window of this 30 years, before govt debt matures, it still acts like free-money into the system, much like BI is. And we can study the effects, which is no really just inflation. Back to my point above, colleges have shown that: Simple inflation driven by growth of earnings and demand is arguably a "good thing". But instead we get inflation driven by "free-money" driving out "earned-money", this is almost the worst kind.

by hc07 10y ago

Suncho 10y ago

Another effect is that not only would GD be viral, BI inside this system itself would become viral. By "viral," do you mean "inflationary"? I'm not sure how useful it is to compare student loans to basic income. Student loans have to be paid back. And they can only go toward college, so they cause market distortions that a basic income wouldn't cause. Many of the products and services we use benefit from economy of scale. The more we produce of a particular product, the cheaper it becomes to produce each individual unit. If we give people money to buy more goods, we will scale up to produce more goods to sell to them, which in no way pushes prices higher. A basic income won't, on its own, lead to general price inflation.

hc07 10y ago
By "viral," do you mean "inflationary"? Not just inflationary. I mean that the Basic Income inside this system, will seek out and destroy "actual income". It weakens actual income to the point of irrelevance over time, just like what is happening in any govt subsidized fields. Simple inflation driven by growth is arguably a "good thing". But instead we get inflation driven by "free-money" driving out "earned-money", this is almost the worst kind. People who don't need or qualify for BI, who makes money the hard way, will now need to compete with money from BI, or worse, this BI that is in this viral currency. Yes, inflation is the symptom but not the result. Because people spending BI GS don't feel pain (they get it again next cycle, for free), it's the people who actually do the hard work to make non-BI USD that will find that there's less they can buy. I'm not sure how useful it is to compare student loans to basic income...And they can only go toward college, so they cause market distortions that a basic income wouldn't cause. That's a overly bold statement. Not all production can benefit from economy of scale unless we're willing to "factory-ize" everything -- and sometimes we're just.not.willing.to for qualitative reasons. This is the difference between things you can buy in dollar stores vs things that are hard to make cheaper. Try making Child Care more "economy of scale" like; or surgery; or education; Or nursing. If GD can only be used to buy food, or bread. These I can believe these could be made to benefit from economy of scale, but to solve "basic income needs" esp for service intensive things that tends to be "bid up in price" when there's more demand rather than just scale? I think we're back tot he BI vs earned-income competition problem. Student loans have to be paid back. Not entirely true. Between grants, govt loans, and govt-guaranteed loans. There are people who will not be able to pay back the loan+inflation rate (The fact that they might take their whole lives to pay the remaining amount isn't relevant). The delta essentially means the govt have given "free money" into the system. Although it won't be the full amount. In that effect, it acts like a BI. Even if you take into account govt debt... If you stretch out maturity to something really long, like 30 years. Inside the window of this 30 years, before govt debt matures, it still acts like free-money into the system, much like BI is. And we can study the effects, which is no really just inflation. Back to my point above, colleges have shown that: Simple inflation driven by growth of earnings and demand is arguably a "good thing". But instead we get inflation driven by "free-money" driving out "earned-money", this is almost the worst kind.