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In 1914 one million Belgian refugees were already in the Netherlands This is often forgotten. And instead Belgians I know are now complaining about, what, some
by stinos 11y ago
In 1914 one million Belgian refugees were already in the Netherlands
This is often forgotten. And instead Belgians I know are now complaining about, what, some tens of thousands?, Syrian (and other) refugees entering the country. And yes, some of these Belgians even want to build fences to keep them out. Hmm, where did I hear this story before..
- venomsnake 11y agoBecause it is different to help a cousin and a stranger. If the refugees were culturally similar - the attitude in Europe would be different.
- mbrock 11y agoYeah, it's very important to have the right culture fit...
- louwrentius 11y agoIf they don't share basic cultural values our society is built upon, I think that matters a ton. People who 'mistreat' or even just disapprove of how women in our society live their lives, how we treat gays, non-believers, have nothing to add to our society or this world.
- abalone 11y agoDisapproval of modern women, gays and non-believers... Sorry I stepped out for a minute, are we talking about fundamentalist Christians? Orthodox Jews?
- venomsnake 11y agoThese populations are not common in Europe. And I would love to stay that way. People that take their religion too seriously should stay out of EU.
- qb45 11y ago> Sorry I stepped out for a minute, are we talking about fundamentalist Christians? Orthodox Jews? Well, in few years/decades you may have one more significantly influential group for your list :)
- mbrock 11y ago"We" started treating gay people and women and nonbelievers well to some extent in the past decades. And disagreement over such rights are not the only cause of anti-refugee sentiment. In Sweden, extremist arsonists light refugee housing on fire. That's sheer hatred, not liberal concern.
- venomsnake 11y agoYep. They don't want them there. But there is a world of difference between hatred towards non EU people and towards EU citizens. The only people that have a right to be in EU are the citizens of EU. For everyone else it is a privilege.
- mbrock 11y agoWell, that's an interesting question from a human rights perspective. Hannah Arendt among many others have written about human rights and people who are displaced by war, deportation, lack of citizenship, etc. The view that the European borders legitimately forbid people in need from entering is inhumane as far as I can tell—and not really supported by the constitutions either.
- venomsnake 11y agoThe European borders prevent everyone from enetering. Whether humane or not is irrelevant. There are few placec in which you are allowed to cross. You can be in need and cross there.
- unknown_apostle 11y agoPretty lame. If you live close to the border, Flemings and Dutch are intermarried, they speak the same dialect and all. Refugees were close to home and actually went home after the Germans left. Refugees of Syria (and Iraq and Afghanistan and also all of Africa etc) have been flooding Belgium for 20-30 years now. Somehow they never depart in any of the other 360 degrees surrounding their countries. Or choose to stay in one of the many countries they pass through on their way. Only North West Europe will do: Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Sweden. On the plus side, last year Saudi Arabia did offer to help Belgium, not by taking up refugees until the war is over but by funding construction of more mosques.
- gjulianm 11y agoThis is incredibly misinformed. First of all, the majority of refugees are staying in the middle east zone. See UN data [1]: ~4 million Turkey, Lebanon and others. Estimates round ~1 million for all of Europe. Regarding that they only "flood North West Europe": in Spain, for example, the ~4 % of the population is Muslim (not all of them are immigrants but it's a decent indicator). In Sweden, it is ~5%, ~5-7% in Belgium, ~5% in Germany. 1: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php
- unknown_apostle 11y ago"Incredibly" misinformed? Not really. How many in Saudi Arabia? Gulf states? Iran? The *stans? North Africa? Georgia? In China or Japan or Russia or Kenya or New Zealand for that matter? How many would be in NW Europe without the spreading plan? How do the ones that weren't even registered, or the ones that went missing move around the Schengen zone? About the second set of figures. Total immigration is much higher than 7%, because not all immigrants are muslims. Even then, I’d say these numbers confirm that migration is much higher in NW Europe. But you know, 7% of Belgium being muslim is not even the problem. The problem is that this is happening in a few decades time. In countries that have never seen immigration and were screwing it up big time long before the Syrian refugee crisis. Culturally and economically. Au fond, immigration policy in Europe is completely reckless. There is no vision, just passively reacting to whatever happens and calling that being compassionate. And to go back to the original reason for my post: I’m especially sick of hearing specious, patronizing arguments like ”but 100 years ago Belgians fled to the Netherlands". We need to move beyond that sophistry. Especially if you live in Brussels.
- rdl 11y agoThis is probably not a great discussion for HN due to where it will inevitably go.
- function_seven 11y agoI read your comment when you first posted it, and nodded in agreement. But 8 hours later I gotta say: the sibling threads to this have actually been surprisingly civil.
- jarek-foksa 11y agoThe discussion looks "surprisingly civil" probably because admins were removing comments and threatening users with bans.