11 ms·

You can always sign an offer letter, and reneg later if a better offer comes along. I've done that before. The recruiter even had the balls to say, "You know, y

by seibelj 11y ago

You can always sign an offer letter, and reneg later if a better offer comes along. I've done that before. The recruiter even had the balls to say, "You know, you signed a contract, it's a legal document." And I replied, "Massachusetts is an at-will state, just imagine me starting at 9:00am on the start date, and quitting at 9:01am." No one can force you to do anything, this isn't North Korea.

wfunction 11y ago
And this is how you create a world where you can't trust anyone to follow through with their commitments.
- Hyperborian 11y ago
  That world doesn't need to be created, it's the world we have now.
  - rtpg 11y ago
    Very dependent on who you work with. Of course the people exist (and that's why there's contracts to begin with... though it's also to clarify what's being agreed upon), but a lot of society is predicated on 99% of people not being jerks.
    - pmalynin 11y ago
      >but a lot of society is predicated on 99% of people not being jerks Maybe thats why the 1% are so successful then.
      - meric 11y ago
        Being a jerk is like being (and very correlated to) short volatility[1]. Most of the time it's profitable. Every once in a while the world goes upside down, all the jerks are rounded up, have their stuff confiscated, tortured, and killed. - 1789 French Revolution (Aristocracy rounded up and killed) - 1911 Chinese Revolution (Ruling class rounded up and killed) - 1917 Russian Revolution (Ruling class rounded up and killed) - 1966 Chinese Cultural Revolution (Landholders rounded up and killed) - 2003 Iraq War (Ruling class killed) - 2011 Libyan War (Ruling class rounded up and killed) [1] Buy short volatility with SVXY https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:SVXY https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:SVXY
      - rtpg 11y ago
        I would say that most of the jerks are not among the most successful people (though perhaps there are more jerks than non-jerks up there...)
- epicureanideal 11y ago
  If they don't like it that way they should offer some minimum term of employment or a two-way minimum notice period.
  - ryanbrunner 11y ago
    I think the situation is already balanced in terms of expectations that both parties won't be dicks. If a company gave you a job offer, and then rescinded it the day before you started, after you've quit your previous job, you would be perfectly justified screaming from the rooftops that the company dicked you over.
    - epicureanideal 11y ago
      But ultimately there is nothing contractually stopping either party from being dicks, which is what we expect contracts to provide.
- cordite 11y ago
  At my place, reneging carries a significant negative tone (it is also where I learned the word). It is also deeply against the culture here to miss commitments willfully and without notice. In particular, one tentative but reneged new hire was on a visa from India. I'm not sure what happens there. Though I'm not sure if the visa was sponsored by my place or not.
- jakobegger 11y ago
  If you pressure people to agree to something, it's your own damn fault if they change their mind. Give people time to consider their options, and they 'll be less likely to change their mind.
b0sk 11y ago
Keep in mind though - if you do this pull this off there's a chance you may be permanently blacklisted by the company. What's the guarantee you won't pull the same move next time around? I don't fault with the recruiter's pressure move at all. I mean the company probably has taken the job listing off and preparing for your orientation. I understand the sentiment about at-will employment and companies can fire you at any time... but whenever there is a question of "Can I do this in a non-bridge-burning way?" you should take that path.
wolframarnold 11y ago
You can't build a career on that behavior. Especially if you stick around a place for a decade or so, you'd be surprised whom you run into and whose help you might need down the road. Unless you're leaving town and the industry for good, don't burn bridges.
- civilian 11y ago
  Hell yeah you can. I'm the first to recognize that tech (and especially tech in Seattle) is a small town. But, really, who is going to remember the one person who quit on their first day because of a bullshit exploding offer? The hiring manager, recruiter, and probably no one else. As an everyday grunt, this stuff wouldn't even be brought up to me. Having a 2 people added to a blacklist is fine. I've done far worse things to my career.
  - hashkb 11y ago
    You shouldn't do it because it's wrong, and as a result you should feel bad about yourself. You cheated at the game we're all playing and added to the general mistrust that makes negotiating employment so shitty in the first place.
    - passwordreset 11y ago
      Wow. Should one got an exploding offer, the correct behavior IMO is to tell the recruiter to eat sh!t, or possibly, tell the recruiter that his attitude sucks, and because of it, you'll be waiting until the day after the deadline to make your decision. Alternatively, there is nothing about the GP or GGGP's comments that make the described behavior wrong. That's incredibly naive. You use the word _cheating_? "Cheating at the game we're all playing" is what you said. What the hell are you talking about? The game is negotiation, and if you can't do that, maybe you need to leave. If negotiating employment is shitty to you, you're doing it wrong. Learn how to do it right, and maybe that will adjust your attitude in the right direction. edit: ok, you don't need to be as rude as I am, but I'm a known asshole, so ymmv.
sqldba 11y ago
I wouldn't. But. I've seen plenty of stories from friends who had received a written offer and then had it rescinded before/on the start date. There's no legal recourse. Still, it's shitty, and I don't engage in shitty behaviour just because someone else does it.
hashkb 11y ago
Don't ever reneg on something you signed. All these small defections to acquire a small advantage for yourself poison the well for anyone trying to act honorably.
- seibelj 11y ago
  I work at startups, the company I pulled this with folded 2 months ago. As someone whose been both an engineer and a manager, I really don't care about feelings when it comes to my life. I'm not going to work some place out of "honor" and waste years of my life if a better opportunity comes along.

by seibelj 11y ago

wfunction 11y ago

And this is how you create a world where you can't trust anyone to follow through with their commitments.

Hyperborian 11y ago
That world doesn't need to be created, it's the world we have now.
- rtpg 11y ago
  Very dependent on who you work with. Of course the people exist (and that's why there's contracts to begin with... though it's also to clarify what's being agreed upon), but a lot of society is predicated on 99% of people not being jerks.
  - pmalynin 11y ago
    >but a lot of society is predicated on 99% of people not being jerks Maybe thats why the 1% are so successful then.
    - meric 11y ago
      Being a jerk is like being (and very correlated to) short volatility[1]. Most of the time it's profitable. Every once in a while the world goes upside down, all the jerks are rounded up, have their stuff confiscated, tortured, and killed. - 1789 French Revolution (Aristocracy rounded up and killed) - 1911 Chinese Revolution (Ruling class rounded up and killed) - 1917 Russian Revolution (Ruling class rounded up and killed) - 1966 Chinese Cultural Revolution (Landholders rounded up and killed) - 2003 Iraq War (Ruling class killed) - 2011 Libyan War (Ruling class rounded up and killed) [1] Buy short volatility with SVXY https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:SVXY https://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSEARCA:SVXY
    - rtpg 11y ago
      I would say that most of the jerks are not among the most successful people (though perhaps there are more jerks than non-jerks up there...)
epicureanideal 11y ago
If they don't like it that way they should offer some minimum term of employment or a two-way minimum notice period.
- ryanbrunner 11y ago
  I think the situation is already balanced in terms of expectations that both parties won't be dicks. If a company gave you a job offer, and then rescinded it the day before you started, after you've quit your previous job, you would be perfectly justified screaming from the rooftops that the company dicked you over.
  - epicureanideal 11y ago
    But ultimately there is nothing contractually stopping either party from being dicks, which is what we expect contracts to provide.
cordite 11y ago
At my place, reneging carries a significant negative tone (it is also where I learned the word). It is also deeply against the culture here to miss commitments willfully and without notice. In particular, one tentative but reneged new hire was on a visa from India. I'm not sure what happens there. Though I'm not sure if the visa was sponsored by my place or not.
jakobegger 11y ago
If you pressure people to agree to something, it's your own damn fault if they change their mind. Give people time to consider their options, and they 'll be less likely to change their mind.

b0sk 11y ago

Keep in mind though - if you do this pull this off there's a chance you may be permanently blacklisted by the company. What's the guarantee you won't pull the same move next time around? I don't fault with the recruiter's pressure move at all. I mean the company probably has taken the job listing off and preparing for your orientation. I understand the sentiment about at-will employment and companies can fire you at any time... but whenever there is a question of "Can I do this in a non-bridge-burning way?" you should take that path.

wolframarnold 11y ago

You can't build a career on that behavior. Especially if you stick around a place for a decade or so, you'd be surprised whom you run into and whose help you might need down the road. Unless you're leaving town and the industry for good, don't burn bridges.

civilian 11y ago
Hell yeah you can. I'm the first to recognize that tech (and especially tech in Seattle) is a small town. But, really, who is going to remember the one person who quit on their first day because of a bullshit exploding offer? The hiring manager, recruiter, and probably no one else. As an everyday grunt, this stuff wouldn't even be brought up to me. Having a 2 people added to a blacklist is fine. I've done far worse things to my career.
- hashkb 11y ago
  You shouldn't do it because it's wrong, and as a result you should feel bad about yourself. You cheated at the game we're all playing and added to the general mistrust that makes negotiating employment so shitty in the first place.
  - passwordreset 11y ago
    Wow. Should one got an exploding offer, the correct behavior IMO is to tell the recruiter to eat sh!t, or possibly, tell the recruiter that his attitude sucks, and because of it, you'll be waiting until the day after the deadline to make your decision. Alternatively, there is nothing about the GP or GGGP's comments that make the described behavior wrong. That's incredibly naive. You use the word _cheating_? "Cheating at the game we're all playing" is what you said. What the hell are you talking about? The game is negotiation, and if you can't do that, maybe you need to leave. If negotiating employment is shitty to you, you're doing it wrong. Learn how to do it right, and maybe that will adjust your attitude in the right direction. edit: ok, you don't need to be as rude as I am, but I'm a known asshole, so ymmv.

sqldba 11y ago

I wouldn't. But. I've seen plenty of stories from friends who had received a written offer and then had it rescinded before/on the start date. There's no legal recourse. Still, it's shitty, and I don't engage in shitty behaviour just because someone else does it.

hashkb 11y ago

Don't ever reneg on something you signed. All these small defections to acquire a small advantage for yourself poison the well for anyone trying to act honorably.

seibelj 11y ago
I work at startups, the company I pulled this with folded 2 months ago. As someone whose been both an engineer and a manager, I really don't care about feelings when it comes to my life. I'm not going to work some place out of "honor" and waste years of my life if a better opportunity comes along.