5 ms·

How does giving away a known end point make a system more secure? To me, it's the opposite, and makes Signal less secure.

by nxzero 11y ago

dmix 11y ago
A big problem with some E2E messaging systems is that your conversations aren't synced across devices. By routing messages through your phone, the way WhatsApp does in their desktop app, you can have the same conversation synced across both devices. (EDIT: additionally a server in between could sync the various client conversations as it seems Signal is doing). Otherwise you end up with a situation, such as with Telegram secret chats, where encrypted chats are initiated on your phone<>friend, then you switch to your desktop and create a second secret chat channel with the same friend. You could then potentially miss messages that are still going to your phones secret channel - as your friend won't be able to know which secret chat is mobile/desktop or the "right" one to use at that moment. You'd have to close the existing secret chat on your phone when switching machines, which we often forgot to do in practice.
- moxie 11y ago
  Signal Desktop messages aren't routed through your mobile device, so it's the best of both worlds. Once you've installed Signal Desktop, you can use it when your mobile device is turned off, and vice versa.
  - dmix 11y ago
    Ah, I assumed it was similar to WhatsApp. Even better. The messages are being synced automatically between chrome client <> mobile clients, which is the key feature.
  - kyledrake 11y ago
    Fantastic work Moxie, thank you. My best to you and the team. Let us know how we can help contribute to the project (code/$/etc).
    - pritambaral 11y ago
      Not Moxie, but the desktop beta announcement[0] carried a link to a donations and grants page[1] and a link to their Github org[2] for anyone to verify their code and implementation, but not any request for or details about code submissions. [0]: https://www.whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://www.whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ [1]: https://freedom.press/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists https://freedom.press/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists [2]: https://github.com/WhisperSystems https://github.com/WhisperSystems
  - nxzero 11y ago
    (@Moxie) Are there docs on how & why phone numbers are used, and what if any risks/threats/weaknesses are known to exist?
    - Natanael_L 11y ago
      I'd love to see Keybase support for contact management and addressing, perhaps by hooking into OpenKeychain that's already got it integrated (OpenKeychain has an API)
      - mintplant 11y ago
        Don't hold your breath - moxie isn't the biggest fan of GPG. http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/gpg-and-me/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/gpg-and-me/
        Natanael_L 11y ago
        From the keybase developers: https://saltpack.org/ https://saltpack.org/
        nickik 11y ago
        You should update your knowlage of keybase. They are more then just a GPG public directory. They try to have multi device end to end encryption capability distributed by a smart system of public key infrastruture. This gives them the basis to have multi client archtecture for messanging and file sharing. It is very cool because it allows you to revoke individual devices and thus also 'solves' the GPG problem of having one 'holy' key. See: - https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-new-key-model https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-new-key-model - https://saltpack.org/ https://saltpack.org/
  - nickik 11y ago
    So does the Desktop client have its own set of keys? Do you encrypt every message for each device registered? Can I somehow revoke a device when I lose my phone/laptop? Are you considering something like the Keybase Device registry? It would be fantastic if I could somehow add my phone number to keybase and integrate with Keybase. It would be a total hit, Keybase providing filesharing while Signal adds the messenging part, all backed up by a clever PKI that works for the online world.
    - Rafert 11y ago
      I saw the desktop client mentioning something about generating keys after scanning the QR code. Afaik it works similarly to group chat[0], but instead of clients with their own keys belonging to different accounts they belong to the same one. Open Settings > Linked devices and tap an a device to unlink on Android. Seems there's no way to revoke (yet) in the Chrome app. [0]: https://whispersystems.org/blog/private-groups/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/private-groups/
      - nickik 11y ago
        I see. Thats pretty cool. Its better then whatsapp web client.
- deleted 11y ago
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How does giving away a known end point make a system more secure? To me, it's the opposite, and makes Signal less secure.

by nxzero 11y ago

How does giving away a known end point make a system more secure? To me, it's the opposite, and makes Signal less secure.

dmix 11y ago

A big problem with some E2E messaging systems is that your conversations aren't synced across devices. By routing messages through your phone, the way WhatsApp does in their desktop app, you can have the same conversation synced across both devices. (EDIT: additionally a server in between could sync the various client conversations as it seems Signal is doing). Otherwise you end up with a situation, such as with Telegram secret chats, where encrypted chats are initiated on your phone<>friend, then you switch to your desktop and create a second secret chat channel with the same friend. You could then potentially miss messages that are still going to your phones secret channel - as your friend won't be able to know which secret chat is mobile/desktop or the "right" one to use at that moment. You'd have to close the existing secret chat on your phone when switching machines, which we often forgot to do in practice.

moxie 11y ago
Signal Desktop messages aren't routed through your mobile device, so it's the best of both worlds. Once you've installed Signal Desktop, you can use it when your mobile device is turned off, and vice versa.
- dmix 11y ago
  Ah, I assumed it was similar to WhatsApp. Even better. The messages are being synced automatically between chrome client <> mobile clients, which is the key feature.
- kyledrake 11y ago
  Fantastic work Moxie, thank you. My best to you and the team. Let us know how we can help contribute to the project (code/$/etc).
  - pritambaral 11y ago
    Not Moxie, but the desktop beta announcement[0] carried a link to a donations and grants page[1] and a link to their Github org[2] for anyone to verify their code and implementation, but not any request for or details about code submissions. [0]: https://www.whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ https://www.whispersystems.org/blog/signal-desktop/ [1]: https://freedom.press/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists https://freedom.press/bundle/encryption-tools-journalists [2]: https://github.com/WhisperSystems https://github.com/WhisperSystems
- nxzero 11y ago
  (@Moxie) Are there docs on how & why phone numbers are used, and what if any risks/threats/weaknesses are known to exist?
  - Natanael_L 11y ago
    I'd love to see Keybase support for contact management and addressing, perhaps by hooking into OpenKeychain that's already got it integrated (OpenKeychain has an API)
    - mintplant 11y ago
      Don't hold your breath - moxie isn't the biggest fan of GPG. http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/gpg-and-me/ http://www.thoughtcrime.org/blog/gpg-and-me/
      - Natanael_L 11y ago
        From the keybase developers: https://saltpack.org/ https://saltpack.org/
      - nickik 11y ago
        You should update your knowlage of keybase. They are more then just a GPG public directory. They try to have multi device end to end encryption capability distributed by a smart system of public key infrastruture. This gives them the basis to have multi client archtecture for messanging and file sharing. It is very cool because it allows you to revoke individual devices and thus also 'solves' the GPG problem of having one 'holy' key. See: - https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-new-key-model https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-new-key-model - https://saltpack.org/ https://saltpack.org/
- nickik 11y ago
  So does the Desktop client have its own set of keys? Do you encrypt every message for each device registered? Can I somehow revoke a device when I lose my phone/laptop? Are you considering something like the Keybase Device registry? It would be fantastic if I could somehow add my phone number to keybase and integrate with Keybase. It would be a total hit, Keybase providing filesharing while Signal adds the messenging part, all backed up by a clever PKI that works for the online world.
  - Rafert 11y ago
    I saw the desktop client mentioning something about generating keys after scanning the QR code. Afaik it works similarly to group chat[0], but instead of clients with their own keys belonging to different accounts they belong to the same one. Open Settings > Linked devices and tap an a device to unlink on Android. Seems there's no way to revoke (yet) in the Chrome app. [0]: https://whispersystems.org/blog/private-groups/ https://whispersystems.org/blog/private-groups/
    - nickik 11y ago
      I see. Thats pretty cool. Its better then whatsapp web client.
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