5 ms·

At this point, I think the burden of proof is on Theranos to demonstrate that they weren't designed from the beginning to be a scam, initially aimed at the mili

At this point, I think the burden of proof is on Theranos to demonstrate that they weren't designed from the beginning to be a scam, initially aimed at the military but now just looking for any way to survive as a company.

nostrademons 11y ago
I doubt they were designed from the beginning to be a scam. I do suspect they've been "looking for any way to survive as a company" since about 2006, and some of those ways include various scams. Most folks, when faced with the reality that their original idea won't work and they don't have any idea how to make it work, fold up the company and go back to school or get a job. Some raise $800M, stack the board of directors with politicians and generals, and try to sell to the military.
- ubercore 11y ago
  I suspect this runs afoul of HN etiquette, but I had to comment on how amazing your ending paragraph was. Well done.
- nxzero 11y ago
  Most startups don't end up reaching profitability based on their orginal idea, instead, they change paths, then later reach success or failure.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  > Some raise $800M, stack the board of directors with politicians and generals, and try to sell to the military. Apply HN here I come...
- disposeofnick9 11y ago
  Yup. "Think and grow rich" requires creative imagination and some experience to pivot into whatever has a better chance to become profitable, rather than just throw away value and opportunity. Even if folks really do want to get out, sell it to another shop, don't just put dynamite under or walk away.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  I think this was always the plan - at least from early on. The only thing that surprises me is why Theranos didn't close up shop once the original plan failed.
ryporter 11y ago
That doesn't make any sense. Why would a company spend so long in development if they were a scam? They could have launched a fake product many years ago. Their development efforts failed, and they clearly ran their lab horribly, but I don't see any evidence (or motivation) for the company being a scam from the beginning. What would their exit strategy have been if they had never intended to produce a viable innovation?
- WalterSear 11y ago
  Some scams are played just on other people, but many, many more scams are started by fooling oneself.
- trhway 11y ago
  >They could have launched a fake product many years ago. >any evidence (or motivation) for the company being a scam from the beginning. What would their exit strategy have been if they had never intended to produce a viable innovation? it wasn't pure scam (until of course you dare to call a shady government/military contracting a "scam" :). The story goes something like that that their exit was to sell the stuff to Pentagon, and unfortunately for them and all the high powered Theranos friends there happen to be a guy who insisted on FDA approval before that. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/internal-emails-reveal-concerns-about-theranoss-fda-compliance-date-back-years/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/inter... Very typical Theranos tactics: "Chief executive Elizabeth Holmes, the company’s superstar founder, asked an ally at the highest level of the military to squelch those “inaccurate” concerns in 2012" The "ally" is 4-star Marine General who sits on the Theranos board right now :)
- Mz 11y ago
  It makes sense to me. It is something I have thought before but hesitated to say: I think part of the problem is this company was founded by a charming, pretty, very intelligent and very young woman. And most people doing the advising are male. I am a woman and my experiences have been that this is a serious handicap for getting effective constructive feedback. Men don't really want to have a serious conversation with me about what works, what doesn't, why that is true, etc. If they talk to me at all, many of them are either 1) trying to be charming, even if they have no explicit goal of trying to sleep with me or 2) trying to be encouraging, as if the deeply rooted problems of sexism boil down to "girls just lack confidence!" It has been enormously frustrating. I am older than the woman who founded Theranos. I am older and I have had a less cushy life and I have really struggled with the question of how to get my work taken seriously and how to get men to talk to me about my actual work in an actually constructive fashion. Things have gotten better, but I look at Theranos and I suspect that there was no intent to do anything fraudulent and she may not even fully recognize that it is a failure yet, because she has been talked at for so many years by so many intelligent, successful people like she was a genius and surely was on to something big. I really think this is the likely crux of the problem and I see no good fix for it. I still find it maddeningly difficult to get men to take my work seriously. And I have been very aware that them talking to me for the wrong reason, about the wrong things is a real problem for quite some years.

nostrademons 11y ago

I doubt they were designed from the beginning to be a scam. I do suspect they've been "looking for any way to survive as a company" since about 2006, and some of those ways include various scams. Most folks, when faced with the reality that their original idea won't work and they don't have any idea how to make it work, fold up the company and go back to school or get a job. Some raise $800M, stack the board of directors with politicians and generals, and try to sell to the military.

ubercore 11y ago
I suspect this runs afoul of HN etiquette, but I had to comment on how amazing your ending paragraph was. Well done.
nxzero 11y ago
Most startups don't end up reaching profitability based on their orginal idea, instead, they change paths, then later reach success or failure.
BinaryIdiot 11y ago
> Some raise $800M, stack the board of directors with politicians and generals, and try to sell to the military. Apply HN here I come...
disposeofnick9 11y ago
Yup. "Think and grow rich" requires creative imagination and some experience to pivot into whatever has a better chance to become profitable, rather than just throw away value and opportunity. Even if folks really do want to get out, sell it to another shop, don't just put dynamite under or walk away.
danieltillett 11y ago
I think this was always the plan - at least from early on. The only thing that surprises me is why Theranos didn't close up shop once the original plan failed.

ryporter 11y ago

That doesn't make any sense. Why would a company spend so long in development if they were a scam? They could have launched a fake product many years ago. Their development efforts failed, and they clearly ran their lab horribly, but I don't see any evidence (or motivation) for the company being a scam from the beginning. What would their exit strategy have been if they had never intended to produce a viable innovation?

WalterSear 11y ago
Some scams are played just on other people, but many, many more scams are started by fooling oneself.
trhway 11y ago
>They could have launched a fake product many years ago. >any evidence (or motivation) for the company being a scam from the beginning. What would their exit strategy have been if they had never intended to produce a viable innovation? it wasn't pure scam (until of course you dare to call a shady government/military contracting a "scam" :). The story goes something like that that their exit was to sell the stuff to Pentagon, and unfortunately for them and all the high powered Theranos friends there happen to be a guy who insisted on FDA approval before that. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/internal-emails-reveal-concerns-about-theranoss-fda-compliance-date-back-years/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/inter... Very typical Theranos tactics: "Chief executive Elizabeth Holmes, the company’s superstar founder, asked an ally at the highest level of the military to squelch those “inaccurate” concerns in 2012" The "ally" is 4-star Marine General who sits on the Theranos board right now :)
Mz 11y ago
It makes sense to me. It is something I have thought before but hesitated to say: I think part of the problem is this company was founded by a charming, pretty, very intelligent and very young woman. And most people doing the advising are male. I am a woman and my experiences have been that this is a serious handicap for getting effective constructive feedback. Men don't really want to have a serious conversation with me about what works, what doesn't, why that is true, etc. If they talk to me at all, many of them are either 1) trying to be charming, even if they have no explicit goal of trying to sleep with me or 2) trying to be encouraging, as if the deeply rooted problems of sexism boil down to "girls just lack confidence!" It has been enormously frustrating. I am older than the woman who founded Theranos. I am older and I have had a less cushy life and I have really struggled with the question of how to get my work taken seriously and how to get men to talk to me about my actual work in an actually constructive fashion. Things have gotten better, but I look at Theranos and I suspect that there was no intent to do anything fraudulent and she may not even fully recognize that it is a failure yet, because she has been talked at for so many years by so many intelligent, successful people like she was a genius and surely was on to something big. I really think this is the likely crux of the problem and I see no good fix for it. I still find it maddeningly difficult to get men to take my work seriously. And I have been very aware that them talking to me for the wrong reason, about the wrong things is a real problem for quite some years.