4 ms·

Maybe it's because I haven't been following this very closely but I'm confused. Does this mean I can do things like compile Haskell or OCaml from terminal as ea

Maybe it's because I haven't been following this very closely but I'm confused. Does this mean I can do things like compile Haskell or OCaml from terminal as easily as I do on my Linux install? Can I use apt-get?

skrebbel 11y ago
Yes
- annnnd 11y ago
  Can I use Docker?
  - chx 11y ago
    I would be shocked. As I mentioned above, I wouldn't expect wireshark to run either. From what we gathered so far, this is a syscall translation layer and > No new system calls are added for cgroups - all support for querying and modifying cgroups is via this cgroup file system. Per https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroup-v1/cgroups.txt https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroup-v1/cgroups.t...
    - bpye 11y ago
      There is basic emulation for /dev and /proc too but it is minimal.
    - kchoudhu 11y ago
      No cgroups = no systemd. Windows: a better linux than linux.
      - redpanda_ua 11y ago
        I am a new-ish Linux user. Can someone explain to me why systemd is so bad? Is it because it monopolized so many features? So it's not UNIX way of tiny programs working together? I feel like I am missing something.
        girvo 11y ago
        You basically answered it yourself :) that's the typical argument, yeah. I personally really like systemd, and it's made our infrastructure at work easy to manage and deal with.
        digi_owl 11y ago
        Its complicated. Unix was built around the human readable output of one binary being the input of another. dbus, the carrier for much of the traffic between systemd parts, is far from human readable. Also, one reason they give for developing everything in a single blob of code is that they can then change the protocol as they see fit. This in turn makes it hard for third parties to replace a component, as they will constantly play catch up with the systemd developers. Take logind for example. It depends on systemd-init being there and handling cgroups. Consolekit, what logind replaced, could be used on top of any init. Gentoo forked udev into eudev after the former was merged with systemd, because it became a right pain to extract udev from the larger systemd code, even though at the time of merging it was promised that udev would still be usable separately. This because at every systemd release, the extraction process changed in some way or other. With the traditional unix tools i can probably pipe some output from a GNU binary into busybox into a BSD binary and get the expected result. And if i don't i can break down the chain into parts, look at what they produce, and make adaptions right there in the terminal. Anything similar for systemd will require a compiler and specialized tools for debugging dbus and whatsnot. Maybe all this is fine in a devops environment where everything is in containers or virtual machines. But Linux got where it is because it was not just flexible, but also field repairable thanks to its unix heritage.
      - JdeBP 11y ago
        There are lots of reasons that systemd will probably never run on the Windows NT Linux subsystem, a few reasons that upstart won't run, and the possibility that one could run daemontools family toolsets with a fair degree of success; but a likely overall problem with invoking a service manager such that it is in a daemon context (outwith a login session) in the first place. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376
        kchoudhu 11y ago
        Very informative linked post. Would recommend everyone click through and read it!
    - useerup 11y ago
      Microsoft hasn't announced this (yet), but syscall translation seems to be really well positioned for their container push. I fully expect that MS will announce Linux containers running on Windows Server using WSL. Already the perf is there.
    - CodeCube 11y ago
      wireshark works :) https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008 https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008
      - chx 11y ago
        What on earth? How is that even possible? o_O
  - tdicola 11y ago
    Linux docker? I doubt it--there's a lot of low level kernel stuff docker needs like creating a chroot. That said MS has been working on a docker version for Windows. I dunno if they ever released many details on what exactly it is though, it's been a while since I've much from them on it.
    - annnnd 11y ago
      Hm, ok, but that's "just" syscalls, right? Anyway, that would REALLY be cool. Hope they make it.
    - cyphar 11y ago
      Docker does lots of other complicated things (creating namespaces, setting up cgroups, setting up network interfaces and firewall rules). But the Docker windows container stuff is all in the main Docker repo. It requires proprietary software to use so I'm not really interested.
    - T-A 11y ago
      https://blog.docker.com/2016/03/docker-for-mac-windows-beta/ https://blog.docker.com/2016/03/docker-for-mac-windows-beta/
  - cm-t 11y ago
    I would like to be able to anwser you, but I want to ask ... Can I use LXC/LXD ?
  - mdavidn 11y ago
    No. Among other things, Docker depends on the namespace flags to clone(2), which the Windows mapping layer surely does not support. http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/clone.2.html http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/clone.2.html
  - dingo_bat 11y ago
    This single thing will make or break this feature for me. If I can use Docker in Windows 10, I do not have much use left for my Ubuntu VM.
  - out_of_protocol 11y ago
    I expect this shiny new feature was introduced for exactly this reason - serve as a backed for a docker, both local development and cloud services. So - most likely support is coming
chx 11y ago
Yes, that's the plan. This is a syscall translation layer. In theory everything should run -- or most. I would not expect wireshark to run for example but I have very high hopes for autossh for example because Scott Hanselman have shown Redis running so higher level networking is there. You might need http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ for GUI.
- BoysenberryPi 11y ago
  This is really good news. I rushed through my new laptop purchase and forgot to check the wireless card. Turns out the linux driver for my Realtek wifi causes a soft CPU lock up so I've been stuck on Windows 10 and doing work in a VM. Not nearly as fast and smooth.
- CodeCube 11y ago
  Wireshark works :) https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008 https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008

skrebbel 11y ago

Yes

annnnd 11y ago
Can I use Docker?
- chx 11y ago
  I would be shocked. As I mentioned above, I wouldn't expect wireshark to run either. From what we gathered so far, this is a syscall translation layer and > No new system calls are added for cgroups - all support for querying and modifying cgroups is via this cgroup file system. Per https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroup-v1/cgroups.txt https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroup-v1/cgroups.t...
  - bpye 11y ago
    There is basic emulation for /dev and /proc too but it is minimal.
  - kchoudhu 11y ago
    No cgroups = no systemd. Windows: a better linux than linux.
    - redpanda_ua 11y ago
      I am a new-ish Linux user. Can someone explain to me why systemd is so bad? Is it because it monopolized so many features? So it's not UNIX way of tiny programs working together? I feel like I am missing something.
      - girvo 11y ago
        You basically answered it yourself :) that's the typical argument, yeah. I personally really like systemd, and it's made our infrastructure at work easy to manage and deal with.
      - digi_owl 11y ago
        Its complicated. Unix was built around the human readable output of one binary being the input of another. dbus, the carrier for much of the traffic between systemd parts, is far from human readable. Also, one reason they give for developing everything in a single blob of code is that they can then change the protocol as they see fit. This in turn makes it hard for third parties to replace a component, as they will constantly play catch up with the systemd developers. Take logind for example. It depends on systemd-init being there and handling cgroups. Consolekit, what logind replaced, could be used on top of any init. Gentoo forked udev into eudev after the former was merged with systemd, because it became a right pain to extract udev from the larger systemd code, even though at the time of merging it was promised that udev would still be usable separately. This because at every systemd release, the extraction process changed in some way or other. With the traditional unix tools i can probably pipe some output from a GNU binary into busybox into a BSD binary and get the expected result. And if i don't i can break down the chain into parts, look at what they produce, and make adaptions right there in the terminal. Anything similar for systemd will require a compiler and specialized tools for debugging dbus and whatsnot. Maybe all this is fine in a devops environment where everything is in containers or virtual machines. But Linux got where it is because it was not just flexible, but also field repairable thanks to its unix heritage.
    - JdeBP 11y ago
      There are lots of reasons that systemd will probably never run on the Windows NT Linux subsystem, a few reasons that upstart won't run, and the possibility that one could run daemontools family toolsets with a fair degree of success; but a likely overall problem with invoking a service manager such that it is in a daemon context (outwith a login session) in the first place. * https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376
      - kchoudhu 11y ago
        Very informative linked post. Would recommend everyone click through and read it!
  - useerup 11y ago
    Microsoft hasn't announced this (yet), but syscall translation seems to be really well positioned for their container push. I fully expect that MS will announce Linux containers running on Windows Server using WSL. Already the perf is there.
  - CodeCube 11y ago
    wireshark works :) https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008 https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008
    - chx 11y ago
      What on earth? How is that even possible? o_O
- tdicola 11y ago
  Linux docker? I doubt it--there's a lot of low level kernel stuff docker needs like creating a chroot. That said MS has been working on a docker version for Windows. I dunno if they ever released many details on what exactly it is though, it's been a while since I've much from them on it.
  - annnnd 11y ago
    Hm, ok, but that's "just" syscalls, right? Anyway, that would REALLY be cool. Hope they make it.
  - cyphar 11y ago
    Docker does lots of other complicated things (creating namespaces, setting up cgroups, setting up network interfaces and firewall rules). But the Docker windows container stuff is all in the main Docker repo. It requires proprietary software to use so I'm not really interested.
  - T-A 11y ago
    https://blog.docker.com/2016/03/docker-for-mac-windows-beta/ https://blog.docker.com/2016/03/docker-for-mac-windows-beta/
- cm-t 11y ago
  I would like to be able to anwser you, but I want to ask ... Can I use LXC/LXD ?
- mdavidn 11y ago
  No. Among other things, Docker depends on the namespace flags to clone(2), which the Windows mapping layer surely does not support. http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/clone.2.html http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/clone.2.html
- dingo_bat 11y ago
  This single thing will make or break this feature for me. If I can use Docker in Windows 10, I do not have much use left for my Ubuntu VM.
- out_of_protocol 11y ago
  I expect this shiny new feature was introduced for exactly this reason - serve as a backed for a docker, both local development and cloud services. So - most likely support is coming

chx 11y ago

Yes, that's the plan. This is a syscall translation layer. In theory everything should run -- or most. I would not expect wireshark to run for example but I have very high hopes for autossh for example because Scott Hanselman have shown Redis running so higher level networking is there. You might need http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ for GUI.

BoysenberryPi 11y ago
This is really good news. I rushed through my new laptop purchase and forgot to check the wireless card. Turns out the linux driver for my Realtek wifi causes a soft CPU lock up so I've been stuck on Windows 10 and doing work in a VM. Not nearly as fast and smooth.
CodeCube 11y ago
Wireshark works :) https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008 https://twitter.com/bojanrajkovic/status/717810333663019008