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Non-college grad here (well, AA from a community college, but that doesn't really count). I get the impression that that some kids did really challenging progra

Non-college grad here (well, AA from a community college, but that doesn't really count). I get the impression that that some kids did really challenging programs or went to prestigious schools and that paid off really well, but a lot of kids bought into the "college = success" mantra. Every authority figure they knew was telling them that this was the only way to be successful and the schools were jacking up tuition to pay for more and more amenities. Indoor kayaking! Rock climbing walls! Extend your adolescence for four years and you'll magically be successful and pay it all off! This is really a shocking dereliction of duty on the part of teachers and guidance counselors. It was just easy to go along with conventional wisdom and not apply any critical thinking and they ended up really screwing a lot of kids over. All that said, I wish someone would have shown me the value of a really high-end education and helped me attain one.

manyxcxi 11y ago
> This is really a shocking dereliction of duty on the part of teachers and guidance counselors. Playing devil's advocate for a second, what if the teachers and guidance counselors still believe it to be true? They're likely from a previous generation or two, where simply having a college degree opened up most doors. Then again, what if having a college degree really is still better than not? You don't have to spend $300K on undergrad to get a degree- and I think that is what we should be pounding into kids' heads. That's great that you want to go to a private school for undergrad and two more years to get your masters so you can be a teacher, but paying 5-10% on $300-400K and topping out at $65K/year is a shitty economic deal. Go in-state and work while you study. Search for the grants, so many random grants go relatively unclaimed. It's like buying a car- when you focus on the prospect of a low monthly payment and not the fact you're paying for 95 years, it's easy to hide how much money you're flushing down the toilet. EDIT: I took on about $50K in school loans and worked a minimum 20 hours a week through uni. I worked as a motorcycle mechanic, farm hand on a dairy farm, tech support for the college, hardware testing for a lab, and all kinds of contract development work. Sometimes in the same week. Some days it sucked, most of the time it was tolerable, and it was often pretty fun. I also learned something about my own intestinal fortitude that school never would've taught me.
- mr_turtle 11y ago
  This makes no sense. Are you telling me high school teachers and counselors are telling students to go to colleges without factoring in costs/financial aid packages/ROI?
  - finance-geek 11y ago
    They are saying that teachers/counselors are viewing it from their baked-in perspective formed 30 years ago...back when you could graduate with a bachelor's degree, end up in a school job that gave you a life-long pension and healthcare. I think it is difficult for someone from my parent's generation, who had so many benefits (no offshore competition, defined benefits pensions, lifetime pensions, etc) to understand how tough life is now. You hear about it, but until you struggle with it it is difficult to know.
- devishard 11y ago
  Some of what you're saying is true, but some doesn't quite work out: 1. Work while you study: why work a part time job for $X and go to school part time, when you could finish school in half the time by going full time and spend the remaining time working for $2X? Work study is generally counterproductive. 2. $65K is still a lot of debt. Lots of my peers have that and $20K/yr jobs. The truth is, there simply aren't many good options for today's young adults. There are a handful of fields that can pay well with a degree, but then you have the risk that you won't be able to finish. And there are fewer fields where you can work without a degree and get paid well. Even in CS, a field where you usually can get jobs without a degree, I've roughly capped out my pay without a degree at age 29.
  - rco8786 11y ago
    I took a full time class load and also worked part time through college. It wasn't that bad,(in fact it was good) and it was fairly commonplace at the school I went to. Is this not the case anymore?
    - pc86 11y ago
pmiller2 11y ago
> I get the impression that that some kids did really challenging programs or went to prestigious schools and that paid off really well, but a lot of kids bought into the "college = success" mantra. Challenging programs have relatively little to do with it. It's almost 100% about the prestigious schools and the networks that come along with them: the old "it's not what you know; it's who you know," deal. > All that said, I wish someone would have shown me the value of a really high-end education and helped me attain one. Education is always valuable. It's schooling that's not always worthwhile.
- slavik81 11y ago
  > Challenging programs have relatively little to do with it. It's almost 100% about the prestigious schools and the networks that come along with them: the old "it's not what you know; it's who you know," deal. I didn't go to a particularly prestigious school. I didn't know anybody at the job I got as a new grad. I individually made more money in my first year out of university than most families did mid-career. I was not unusual among those in my program. A degree in engineering pays off in part because it's a challenging program.
- batbomb 11y ago
  Many (most?) people can get into whatever the main land grant/public research university that exists in their respective state, even more so after a year of community college. In general, almost all of these schools offer a good quality education, especially if you avoid degree-mill majors (e.g. communications, psych, history, economics, etc...) and choose any critical thinking degree (STEM, Philosophy, maybe English/Lit). If you aren't going to meet that bar, then it's probably not worth it to go to college because you're probably not going to learn much.
  - pmiller2 11y ago
    My post was not about getting a good quality education. In fact, my contention is that getting a good education is less relevant than the specific school and major one chooses. For a software developer just out of college, an EECS degree from Berkeley is going to beat a degree in (say) math, physics, or robotics from Podunk State, all else being equal. And, all else is rarely equal, because the Berkeley grad is going to have a way better network than the Podunk State grad.
michaelbuddy 11y ago
an associates degree does count. it shows initiative. it's something completed. don't just toss it out, it's not trivial to employers. And you can learn a ton in community college. I know people who enjoyed it a lot more than 4 year universities and had more available to them. depends on the school and the person of course, always.

manyxcxi 11y ago

> This is really a shocking dereliction of duty on the part of teachers and guidance counselors. Playing devil's advocate for a second, what if the teachers and guidance counselors still believe it to be true? They're likely from a previous generation or two, where simply having a college degree opened up most doors. Then again, what if having a college degree really is still better than not? You don't have to spend $300K on undergrad to get a degree- and I think that is what we should be pounding into kids' heads. That's great that you want to go to a private school for undergrad and two more years to get your masters so you can be a teacher, but paying 5-10% on $300-400K and topping out at $65K/year is a shitty economic deal. Go in-state and work while you study. Search for the grants, so many random grants go relatively unclaimed. It's like buying a car- when you focus on the prospect of a low monthly payment and not the fact you're paying for 95 years, it's easy to hide how much money you're flushing down the toilet. EDIT: I took on about $50K in school loans and worked a minimum 20 hours a week through uni. I worked as a motorcycle mechanic, farm hand on a dairy farm, tech support for the college, hardware testing for a lab, and all kinds of contract development work. Sometimes in the same week. Some days it sucked, most of the time it was tolerable, and it was often pretty fun. I also learned something about my own intestinal fortitude that school never would've taught me.

mr_turtle 11y ago
This makes no sense. Are you telling me high school teachers and counselors are telling students to go to colleges without factoring in costs/financial aid packages/ROI?
- finance-geek 11y ago
  They are saying that teachers/counselors are viewing it from their baked-in perspective formed 30 years ago...back when you could graduate with a bachelor's degree, end up in a school job that gave you a life-long pension and healthcare. I think it is difficult for someone from my parent's generation, who had so many benefits (no offshore competition, defined benefits pensions, lifetime pensions, etc) to understand how tough life is now. You hear about it, but until you struggle with it it is difficult to know.
devishard 11y ago
Some of what you're saying is true, but some doesn't quite work out: 1. Work while you study: why work a part time job for $X and go to school part time, when you could finish school in half the time by going full time and spend the remaining time working for $2X? Work study is generally counterproductive. 2. $65K is still a lot of debt. Lots of my peers have that and $20K/yr jobs. The truth is, there simply aren't many good options for today's young adults. There are a handful of fields that can pay well with a degree, but then you have the risk that you won't be able to finish. And there are fewer fields where you can work without a degree and get paid well. Even in CS, a field where you usually can get jobs without a degree, I've roughly capped out my pay without a degree at age 29.
- rco8786 11y ago
  I took a full time class load and also worked part time through college. It wasn't that bad,(in fact it was good) and it was fairly commonplace at the school I went to. Is this not the case anymore?
  - pc86 11y ago

pmiller2 11y ago

> I get the impression that that some kids did really challenging programs or went to prestigious schools and that paid off really well, but a lot of kids bought into the "college = success" mantra. Challenging programs have relatively little to do with it. It's almost 100% about the prestigious schools and the networks that come along with them: the old "it's not what you know; it's who you know," deal. > All that said, I wish someone would have shown me the value of a really high-end education and helped me attain one. Education is always valuable. It's schooling that's not always worthwhile.

slavik81 11y ago
> Challenging programs have relatively little to do with it. It's almost 100% about the prestigious schools and the networks that come along with them: the old "it's not what you know; it's who you know," deal. I didn't go to a particularly prestigious school. I didn't know anybody at the job I got as a new grad. I individually made more money in my first year out of university than most families did mid-career. I was not unusual among those in my program. A degree in engineering pays off in part because it's a challenging program.
batbomb 11y ago
Many (most?) people can get into whatever the main land grant/public research university that exists in their respective state, even more so after a year of community college. In general, almost all of these schools offer a good quality education, especially if you avoid degree-mill majors (e.g. communications, psych, history, economics, etc...) and choose any critical thinking degree (STEM, Philosophy, maybe English/Lit). If you aren't going to meet that bar, then it's probably not worth it to go to college because you're probably not going to learn much.
- pmiller2 11y ago
  My post was not about getting a good quality education. In fact, my contention is that getting a good education is less relevant than the specific school and major one chooses. For a software developer just out of college, an EECS degree from Berkeley is going to beat a degree in (say) math, physics, or robotics from Podunk State, all else being equal. And, all else is rarely equal, because the Berkeley grad is going to have a way better network than the Podunk State grad.

michaelbuddy 11y ago

an associates degree does count. it shows initiative. it's something completed. don't just toss it out, it's not trivial to employers. And you can learn a ton in community college. I know people who enjoyed it a lot more than 4 year universities and had more available to them. depends on the school and the person of course, always.