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> I simply didn’t realize how little room you have to advance as just a programmer I think this is one thing that has changed dramatically (and for the better)

by wdr1 11y ago

> I simply didn’t realize how little room you have to advance as just a programmer I think this is one thing that has changed dramatically (and for the better) in the last ~10 years. I started as a developer in the 90s. The only way to advance was to go into management. I was pretty conflicted, as I was promoted from developer to manager. Quit, went to be a developer at a new job, and got prompted to manager again. Quit again & later was promoted to manager again. Did it a forth time & then have been in management ever since. I really loved coding, but coming from lower income family, was terrified of poverty and thus very motivated to climb whatever ladder someone put in front of me. I'm an engineering manager today at Google and really happy to see there's now a world where engineers can excel without having to be a manager. Over the years, I've had a lot of good career talks with people about if they wanted to do people management (or at least try it). A little bit of a tangent, but it's interesting the myriad of ways those conversations go. Sometimes people who would be clearly great at it, don't want to try it for less-than-good reasons. (E.g., not feeling worthy, would the team respect them having been a peer). Sometimes people who would be terrible at it, really want it for bad reasons as well. (E.g, manager = power (ha!), manager is the only way to advance or be respected (not true!).) Of course, they sometimes want/don't want for very good reasons too. (E.g., "I like helping people grow" or "I would have to talk to people and I hate that", respectively.)

Periodic 11y ago
Perhaps you work in a different part of Google than I do, but I've been here for four years and I see many good engineers getting pushed into management roles to advance their careers. Their job title is still that of an engineer, but they end up with reports, schedules full of meetings and use Google Docs as their primary editor. It seems that the ability to have an impact while writing code is quite limited in the industry, and the way to expand it is to take on leadership and management roles, even if you aren't technically moving onto the management ladder.
- danielvinson 11y ago
  > I see many good engineers getting pushed into management roles to advance their careers. A lot of people whom I see in this category are people who fall more under the "engineer" banner than the "developer" banner - they tend to look for hard problems to solve, and are still happy solving logistical and financial problems.
throwaway462016 11y ago
>>I think this is one thing that has changed dramatically I don't think it has changed all that much. How many engineers that report to you are near your age or older than you?
angelbob 11y ago
Companies know we want it, and have gotten better at talking the talk (e.g. technical career tracks.) But look into how that actually works. For most people it's much harder, if it happens at all. I speak as a guy at the end of the technical track, on my second consecutive job of "look, you make as much as we'll pay just-a-programmer, even an architect, here." Many managers are now convinced things are better. I never talk to anybody high-up on that track who thinks so. Of course, most companies don't have anybody high up on a technical career ladder, but are convinced it's going to be fixed any year here. Fundamentally, as long as it's even 20% easier to get promoted as a manager, people are going to intentionally pick that track. In practice, it's usually 2x-5x easier to get promoted as a manager. I don't think that's fixable. At some point, executives have to decide who to promote. Executives, like the rest of us, prefer people who have skills like theirs - I bias in favor of programming skills for the same reason. But executive bias toward their own skills mean people managers get promoted. I've never worked at Google. But I know a lot of Googlers. I don't think I'm wrong. Also, there's another comment from a Googler disagreeing with you in response to this very comment. It's not a Google-specific problem. But it's a big one.
- carc 11y ago
  "look, you make as much as we'll pay just-a-programmer, even an architect, here." Sorry but this line is almost always complete BS. Anyone that I know who has heard this line, gone out and gotten a (much better) offer somewhere else, and the original company instantly matched. Like, without even having to consult anyone, their manager said they'd match. You can't trust this line.
  - angelbob 11y ago
    I don't trust the line. But I spent months trying to get this much to get to this company.
technocodes 11y ago
Is this propaganda? Not to sound negative, but is what we are viewing here an example of influence on the internet?
lai 11y ago
> I'm an engineering manager today at Google and really happy to see there's now a world where engineers can excel without having to be a manager. This is really interesting and relieving. Have you been able to see this happen in other companies?

by wdr1 11y ago

Periodic 11y ago

Perhaps you work in a different part of Google than I do, but I've been here for four years and I see many good engineers getting pushed into management roles to advance their careers. Their job title is still that of an engineer, but they end up with reports, schedules full of meetings and use Google Docs as their primary editor. It seems that the ability to have an impact while writing code is quite limited in the industry, and the way to expand it is to take on leadership and management roles, even if you aren't technically moving onto the management ladder.

danielvinson 11y ago
> I see many good engineers getting pushed into management roles to advance their careers. A lot of people whom I see in this category are people who fall more under the "engineer" banner than the "developer" banner - they tend to look for hard problems to solve, and are still happy solving logistical and financial problems.

throwaway462016 11y ago

>>I think this is one thing that has changed dramatically I don't think it has changed all that much. How many engineers that report to you are near your age or older than you?

angelbob 11y ago

Companies know we want it, and have gotten better at talking the talk (e.g. technical career tracks.) But look into how that actually works. For most people it's much harder, if it happens at all. I speak as a guy at the end of the technical track, on my second consecutive job of "look, you make as much as we'll pay just-a-programmer, even an architect, here." Many managers are now convinced things are better. I never talk to anybody high-up on that track who thinks so. Of course, most companies don't have anybody high up on a technical career ladder, but are convinced it's going to be fixed any year here. Fundamentally, as long as it's even 20% easier to get promoted as a manager, people are going to intentionally pick that track. In practice, it's usually 2x-5x easier to get promoted as a manager. I don't think that's fixable. At some point, executives have to decide who to promote. Executives, like the rest of us, prefer people who have skills like theirs - I bias in favor of programming skills for the same reason. But executive bias toward their own skills mean people managers get promoted. I've never worked at Google. But I know a lot of Googlers. I don't think I'm wrong. Also, there's another comment from a Googler disagreeing with you in response to this very comment. It's not a Google-specific problem. But it's a big one.

carc 11y ago
"look, you make as much as we'll pay just-a-programmer, even an architect, here." Sorry but this line is almost always complete BS. Anyone that I know who has heard this line, gone out and gotten a (much better) offer somewhere else, and the original company instantly matched. Like, without even having to consult anyone, their manager said they'd match. You can't trust this line.
- angelbob 11y ago
  I don't trust the line. But I spent months trying to get this much to get to this company.

technocodes 11y ago

Is this propaganda? Not to sound negative, but is what we are viewing here an example of influence on the internet?

lai 11y ago

> I'm an engineering manager today at Google and really happy to see there's now a world where engineers can excel without having to be a manager. This is really interesting and relieving. Have you been able to see this happen in other companies?