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Hey everyone! I manage and run the Fellowship program at YC. I just want to build on top of what Dan wrote about being nice. We’re not asking you to do this bec

by kevin 11y ago

Hey everyone! I manage and run the Fellowship program at YC. I just want to build on top of what Dan wrote about being nice. We’re not asking you to do this because we think it’s good manners. We actually believe it’s the right way to think and act like the best investors. It’s easy to form some really bad habits when you sit in a position of power to judge the potential of a person, a team, an idea and their execution—believing that you know better and focusing your time on finding weakness. The best investors don’t spend a lot of time on what can go wrong. They already know the odds are against every startup that ever comes into existence. They already know every startup is a shit show. Those will be the reasons why all the other investors will miss out on an unpredictable opportunity. The best investors try to figure out what can go right. They dream a little with the startup and they then sell that vision back to the founders. Remember that the big wins in startups come from the margins. For you to find what no one else could have predicted, know that it will take the shape of something that isn’t obvious. Being nice gives you a good foundation for being open and optimistic, which is what we strive for when we read applications here at YC. Thanks again for trying this out with us. I'm really excited about what we discover together.

rabidonrails 11y ago
Kevin, I really liked this comment because my inherent assumption would be that YC - or VC's in general - would stay away from "shit shows." Is there a method or a signal that YC looks for within a "shit show" that tells you it can be fixed?
- kevin 11y ago
  You look for grit. What evidence can you find that shows they don't just give up when things get hard? Thing is we don't find out usually until after we invest what the real problems are...so we optimize for people we want to spend a lot of time with and work on these problems/issues whatever they may be. Most founders feel imposter syndrome after they're accepted. The great thing about being part of a batch is you realize you're not alone and then learn that shit show is actually a default state. When you learn that, you relax and focus on the resourcefulness you need to solve your problems systematically.
  - personjerry 11y ago
    > You look for grit. It always seems to me that "grit" and "stubbornness" are similar, and being stubborn to the degree of being unable to give up a hopeless dream seems to be a problem for startup founders. How do you distinguish between these very similar traits when you interview someone?
    - pcmaffey 11y ago
      The difference is in adaptation: when challenged with new perspective / data, do they incorporate it into their vision or ignore the data?
      - bit2general33 11y ago
        Founders/management/whoever need to maintain the ability to vet the value of the new perspective / data. To use a silly example: A flower buying website might do best to avoid spending time/money crafting promotions aimed at single biker dudes who live life off the grid. Even though there is possibly large group of folks that are under represented in the rebel luddite flower purchaser demographics.
    - DanFeldman 11y ago
      That's the crux of what makes this stuff hard. Where do you draw the line between being flexible in decision making AND unyielding in your vision?
    - lotharbot 11y ago
      IMO, "grit" is about working the problem and not giving up but potentially changing tactics, while "stubbornness" is about keeping the same tactics even if the problem changes.
    - findjashua 11y ago
      stubbornness seems to imply rigidity; you can exhibit grit while still being flexible and adapting to changes
minimaxir 11y ago
For the sake of discussion, I'll offer a counterargument. Be Nice is a good goal for Apply HN since it promotes civil discussion and stops the threads from devolving into semantic "lol no https u suck" that some Show HN threads tend to devolve into. Users are not nice. They don't comment on HN or Twitter, they just stop using it without fanfare. And what determine a startup's success in the real world is if people want to use it. Hindsight is 20/20, yes. But I do have concerns that "Be Nice" may dissuade commenters/potential customers from pointing out legitimate, immediate flaws.
- dang 11y ago
  > "Be Nice" may dissuade commenters/potential customers from pointing out legitimate, immediate flaws. I don't think HN users are going to have trouble doing that, but there are different ways to do it, and the nicer ways have the critical property of opening the discussion further instead of shutting it down. We HN users are used to thinking of ourselves as the scrappy underdog, calling out incorrectness and badness with pristine honesty and with no particular effect on the situation, except occasionally a righteous one like forcing Google to do customer service. We don't think of ourselves as being in a position of power, but that's actually an illusion, as many who've walked into a wasps' nest of critical comments and come out stung can attest. To me one interesting social aspect of this experiment, quite separate from who gets funded, is that it unambiguously puts the HN community in a position of power—a perspective that we're not accustomed to, and which requires developing different habits (edit: I mean a higher standard of conduct). Maybe those habits will end up translating to the community as a whole (yay!) Or maybe they won't show up at all (boo!)—but at least we can all keep reminding each other to be nicer in these threads.
  - raldi 11y ago
    "Hey, this looks really cool, but I notice you guys don't support TLS (i.e., if I change the 'http' to 'https', I can't connect). I know you have a million things on your todo list, but this one is extraordinarily important; your target users will simply close their browser windows once they see 'http'. Also, fixing this is easy! Just check out this tutorial [link] .. or let me know if you have any questions and I'll see if I can help you right here!"
newjersey 11y ago
As much as I'd love to hold power over other mortals, I'll have to recuse myself here. I publicly made fun of Drew Houston and gang when they started and again when they reportedly rejected Apple's advances. Without a crystal ball, it just feels like we're just betting here. Are we betting on the viability of a product or idea? Are we betting on the founders? Are we betting on the team's ability to deliver? So many questions... I can't answer any of them but I'd welcome people thinking bout loud and look forward to reading these ideas. (: Edit: recuse not revise
- kevin 11y ago
  Always betting on the founders. Ideas sometimes change. Markets sometimes change. What gets people tripped up is that you sometimes judge a founder indirectly by seeing how they communicate an idea, looking at their ability to deliver, and hearing about how they think about the market. The answers to those questions are important, but we put it in the context of what does it say about the founder.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- brlewis 11y ago
  I think they want something complementary to the existing system. If you had approved Drew Houston and gang you would not be adding anything since YC also approved them. Look for a sign of potential success that YC would miss. One advantage HN has is more time to think. HNers will look at a much smaller stack of applications, and won't be restricted by the brief interview format YC has.
- furyofantares 11y ago
  Not so fast! If everyone who couldn't bet as well as the crowd chose to defer to the crowd there would be no crowd.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
pkfrank 11y ago
Hi Kevin, we applied through the conventional application process for S2016 - would there be any merit to starting an "Apply HN" thread as a supplement and opportunity for public discussion?
- kevin 11y ago
  No rule against it. If you're up for it, I don't see why not.
bmenzalji 11y ago
Thanks for the kind words Kevin - looking forward to hearing back from YC regarding our application! I'm a believer in revolutionizing live events!
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
chroem- 11y ago
I'm somewhat concerned that, as far as I can tell, my application (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038) seems to be unlisted on the main index. Could someone from YC please explain what's going on here?
- dang 11y ago
  What do you mean by the main index? There isn't one yet that's specifically for Apply HN posts, but there should be soon.
  - chroem- 11y ago
    When I submitted it, it showed up under the "new" tab, but when I went to the front page of HN I couldn't find it no matter how many pages I went back, despite the fact that it was newer and had more points than other Apply HN submissions which were being displayed. Perhaps I just missed it?
    - dang 11y ago
      It would have appeared under /ask, but not necessarily on the front pages because those have an internal point threshold before they show up. Once we get the /apply page up, they'll be there instead of on /ask. I'm hoping to get that done tomorrow.
petrbela 11y ago
> The best investors don’t spend a lot of time on what can go wrong. They already know the odds are against every startup that ever comes into existence. They already know every startup is a shit show. Those will be the reasons why all the other investors will miss out on an unpredictable opportunity. The best investors try to figure out what can go right. They dream a little with the startup and they then sell that vision back to the founders. This should be carved in stone :)

by kevin 11y ago

rabidonrails 11y ago

Kevin, I really liked this comment because my inherent assumption would be that YC - or VC's in general - would stay away from "shit shows." Is there a method or a signal that YC looks for within a "shit show" that tells you it can be fixed?

kevin 11y ago
You look for grit. What evidence can you find that shows they don't just give up when things get hard? Thing is we don't find out usually until after we invest what the real problems are...so we optimize for people we want to spend a lot of time with and work on these problems/issues whatever they may be. Most founders feel imposter syndrome after they're accepted. The great thing about being part of a batch is you realize you're not alone and then learn that shit show is actually a default state. When you learn that, you relax and focus on the resourcefulness you need to solve your problems systematically.
- personjerry 11y ago
  > You look for grit. It always seems to me that "grit" and "stubbornness" are similar, and being stubborn to the degree of being unable to give up a hopeless dream seems to be a problem for startup founders. How do you distinguish between these very similar traits when you interview someone?
  - pcmaffey 11y ago
    The difference is in adaptation: when challenged with new perspective / data, do they incorporate it into their vision or ignore the data?
    - bit2general33 11y ago
      Founders/management/whoever need to maintain the ability to vet the value of the new perspective / data. To use a silly example: A flower buying website might do best to avoid spending time/money crafting promotions aimed at single biker dudes who live life off the grid. Even though there is possibly large group of folks that are under represented in the rebel luddite flower purchaser demographics.
  - DanFeldman 11y ago
    That's the crux of what makes this stuff hard. Where do you draw the line between being flexible in decision making AND unyielding in your vision?
  - lotharbot 11y ago
    IMO, "grit" is about working the problem and not giving up but potentially changing tactics, while "stubbornness" is about keeping the same tactics even if the problem changes.
  - findjashua 11y ago
    stubbornness seems to imply rigidity; you can exhibit grit while still being flexible and adapting to changes

minimaxir 11y ago

For the sake of discussion, I'll offer a counterargument. Be Nice is a good goal for Apply HN since it promotes civil discussion and stops the threads from devolving into semantic "lol no https u suck" that some Show HN threads tend to devolve into. Users are not nice. They don't comment on HN or Twitter, they just stop using it without fanfare. And what determine a startup's success in the real world is if people want to use it. Hindsight is 20/20, yes. But I do have concerns that "Be Nice" may dissuade commenters/potential customers from pointing out legitimate, immediate flaws.

dang 11y ago
> "Be Nice" may dissuade commenters/potential customers from pointing out legitimate, immediate flaws. I don't think HN users are going to have trouble doing that, but there are different ways to do it, and the nicer ways have the critical property of opening the discussion further instead of shutting it down. We HN users are used to thinking of ourselves as the scrappy underdog, calling out incorrectness and badness with pristine honesty and with no particular effect on the situation, except occasionally a righteous one like forcing Google to do customer service. We don't think of ourselves as being in a position of power, but that's actually an illusion, as many who've walked into a wasps' nest of critical comments and come out stung can attest. To me one interesting social aspect of this experiment, quite separate from who gets funded, is that it unambiguously puts the HN community in a position of power—a perspective that we're not accustomed to, and which requires developing different habits (edit: I mean a higher standard of conduct). Maybe those habits will end up translating to the community as a whole (yay!) Or maybe they won't show up at all (boo!)—but at least we can all keep reminding each other to be nicer in these threads.
- raldi 11y ago
  "Hey, this looks really cool, but I notice you guys don't support TLS (i.e., if I change the 'http' to 'https', I can't connect). I know you have a million things on your todo list, but this one is extraordinarily important; your target users will simply close their browser windows once they see 'http'. Also, fixing this is easy! Just check out this tutorial [link] .. or let me know if you have any questions and I'll see if I can help you right here!"

newjersey 11y ago

As much as I'd love to hold power over other mortals, I'll have to recuse myself here. I publicly made fun of Drew Houston and gang when they started and again when they reportedly rejected Apple's advances. Without a crystal ball, it just feels like we're just betting here. Are we betting on the viability of a product or idea? Are we betting on the founders? Are we betting on the team's ability to deliver? So many questions... I can't answer any of them but I'd welcome people thinking bout loud and look forward to reading these ideas. (: Edit: recuse not revise

kevin 11y ago
Always betting on the founders. Ideas sometimes change. Markets sometimes change. What gets people tripped up is that you sometimes judge a founder indirectly by seeing how they communicate an idea, looking at their ability to deliver, and hearing about how they think about the market. The answers to those questions are important, but we put it in the context of what does it say about the founder.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
brlewis 11y ago
I think they want something complementary to the existing system. If you had approved Drew Houston and gang you would not be adding anything since YC also approved them. Look for a sign of potential success that YC would miss. One advantage HN has is more time to think. HNers will look at a much smaller stack of applications, and won't be restricted by the brief interview format YC has.
furyofantares 11y ago
Not so fast! If everyone who couldn't bet as well as the crowd chose to defer to the crowd there would be no crowd.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

pkfrank 11y ago

Hi Kevin, we applied through the conventional application process for S2016 - would there be any merit to starting an "Apply HN" thread as a supplement and opportunity for public discussion?

kevin 11y ago
No rule against it. If you're up for it, I don't see why not.

bmenzalji 11y ago

Thanks for the kind words Kevin - looking forward to hearing back from YC regarding our application! I'm a believer in revolutionizing live events!

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

chroem- 11y ago

I'm somewhat concerned that, as far as I can tell, my application (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11442038) seems to be unlisted on the main index. Could someone from YC please explain what's going on here?

dang 11y ago
What do you mean by the main index? There isn't one yet that's specifically for Apply HN posts, but there should be soon.
- chroem- 11y ago
  When I submitted it, it showed up under the "new" tab, but when I went to the front page of HN I couldn't find it no matter how many pages I went back, despite the fact that it was newer and had more points than other Apply HN submissions which were being displayed. Perhaps I just missed it?
  - dang 11y ago
    It would have appeared under /ask, but not necessarily on the front pages because those have an internal point threshold before they show up. Once we get the /apply page up, they'll be there instead of on /ask. I'm hoping to get that done tomorrow.

petrbela 11y ago

> The best investors don’t spend a lot of time on what can go wrong. They already know the odds are against every startup that ever comes into existence. They already know every startup is a shit show. Those will be the reasons why all the other investors will miss out on an unpredictable opportunity. The best investors try to figure out what can go right. They dream a little with the startup and they then sell that vision back to the founders. This should be carved in stone :)