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> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe o

by arcanus 11y ago

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

henrikschroder 11y ago
> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.
- alistairSH 11y ago
  Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-class (think Kennedy or Vanderbilt). Rich, maybe, but probably not upper class.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.
    - alistairSH 11y ago
      The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous. Among some demographics, that may be true. But, ask a classroom full of not-poor children, and answers are more likely to be along the lines of "I want to be an astronaut", not "I want to be Kim Kardashian".
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      Only for the striving and nouveau riche. Real rich people don't talk about money.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  > and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time. If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    > Are you sure that isn't an act? It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling. Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time. edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same feeling, despite being effectively the same.
    - mdpopescu 11y ago
      Interesting! Thanks, this clarifies something for me - my wife is mortified because I freely discuss my income with anyone who asks, and it's way higher than the average. She considers it "bragging" and, as you say, embarrassing. I always thought I was showing friends / relatives / acquaintances that getting a lot more money is possible with not much effort - I work from home and don't have a degree. Anyway - it's interesting to think of this mentality as part of "European culture".
      - lagadu 11y ago
        Yes that's it: it always feels like bragging.
    - Periodic 11y ago
      I had associated it with survivors/metaphysical guilt. It's similar to the guilt that survivors feel when an accident happens and injures/kills others but not them. It's not that we did anything wrong to be ashamed of, but instead almost a guilt about being lucky or being who we are. It's an interesting phenomenon and I've begun studying it more after moving out of Silicon Valley and suddenly realizing how very privileged I really am. A specific point is that generally you can't discharge the guilt just by doing good things. Donations and volunteer work don't seem to help because there's nothing to atone for.
- quanticle 11y ago
  >but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. To make a defense, reaching the end goal implies that one (or more likely, one's children) have stopped striving, stopped contributing to society, and are enjoying a parasitic lifestyle of indolent luxury. More to the point, it makes sense that "upper-class" is pejorative in the US because the US was settled in large part by people from Europe fleeing from the aristocratic upper-class there. The people here specifically wanted to contrast themselves from the rentier upper-classes in the "home countries".
- Thriptic 11y ago
  > That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. It's more complicated than that. It's people who start with wealth who are looked down on, not people who come from modest means to achieve wealth. The default assumption is that these individuals bought their way into whatever success they have, never have to work for anything, and never experience hardship.
- majewsky 11y ago
  > I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Not just them. I feel the same when I hear that I earn more on my 28-hour-a-week job than my brothers working full-time as civil engineers (including night shifts and lots of overtime).
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

by arcanus 11y ago

henrikschroder 11y ago

> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.

alistairSH 11y ago
Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-class (think Kennedy or Vanderbilt). Rich, maybe, but probably not upper class.
- cylinder 11y ago
  I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.
  - alistairSH 11y ago
    The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous. Among some demographics, that may be true. But, ask a classroom full of not-poor children, and answers are more likely to be along the lines of "I want to be an astronaut", not "I want to be Kim Kardashian".
  - Spooky23 11y ago
    Only for the striving and nouveau riche. Real rich people don't talk about money.
WalterBright 11y ago
> and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time. If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.
- lagadu 11y ago
  > Are you sure that isn't an act? It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling. Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time. edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same feeling, despite being effectively the same.
  - mdpopescu 11y ago
    Interesting! Thanks, this clarifies something for me - my wife is mortified because I freely discuss my income with anyone who asks, and it's way higher than the average. She considers it "bragging" and, as you say, embarrassing. I always thought I was showing friends / relatives / acquaintances that getting a lot more money is possible with not much effort - I work from home and don't have a degree. Anyway - it's interesting to think of this mentality as part of "European culture".
    - lagadu 11y ago
      Yes that's it: it always feels like bragging.
  - Periodic 11y ago
    I had associated it with survivors/metaphysical guilt. It's similar to the guilt that survivors feel when an accident happens and injures/kills others but not them. It's not that we did anything wrong to be ashamed of, but instead almost a guilt about being lucky or being who we are. It's an interesting phenomenon and I've begun studying it more after moving out of Silicon Valley and suddenly realizing how very privileged I really am. A specific point is that generally you can't discharge the guilt just by doing good things. Donations and volunteer work don't seem to help because there's nothing to atone for.
quanticle 11y ago
>but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. To make a defense, reaching the end goal implies that one (or more likely, one's children) have stopped striving, stopped contributing to society, and are enjoying a parasitic lifestyle of indolent luxury. More to the point, it makes sense that "upper-class" is pejorative in the US because the US was settled in large part by people from Europe fleeing from the aristocratic upper-class there. The people here specifically wanted to contrast themselves from the rentier upper-classes in the "home countries".
Thriptic 11y ago
> That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. It's more complicated than that. It's people who start with wealth who are looked down on, not people who come from modest means to achieve wealth. The default assumption is that these individuals bought their way into whatever success they have, never have to work for anything, and never experience hardship.
majewsky 11y ago
> I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Not just them. I feel the same when I hear that I earn more on my 28-hour-a-week job than my brothers working full-time as civil engineers (including night shifts and lots of overtime).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]