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Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social cla

Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who have also made class journeys, are much more in tune, they have no problems seeing class and classism. One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of class as culture, and class as performance. > It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it. Holy crap. Yes. A thousand times yes.

arcanus 11y ago
> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.
  - alistairSH 11y ago
    Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-class (think Kennedy or Vanderbilt). Rich, maybe, but probably not upper class.
    - cylinder 11y ago
      I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.
      - alistairSH 11y ago
        The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous. Among some demographics, that may be true. But, ask a classroom full of not-poor children, and answers are more likely to be along the lines of "I want to be an astronaut", not "I want to be Kim Kardashian".
      - Spooky23 11y ago
        Only for the striving and nouveau riche. Real rich people don't talk about money.
  - WalterBright 11y ago
    > and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time. If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.
    - lagadu 11y ago
      > Are you sure that isn't an act? It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling. Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time. edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same feeling, despite being effectively the same.
paulsutter 11y ago
Is it possible that your friends are actually right? How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it. > Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > Is it possible that your friends are actually right? In being oblivious to a well-documented phenomenon? That's not very likely. Obliviousness to class is a class marker for middle class. Major values of the middle class are equal opportunity and meritocracy, but existing class structures prevent that, so the middle class stick their heads in the ground and pretend that the upper classes have earned their position at the top, and that the lower classes haven't yet earned a higher position. Members of both the upper and lower classes are well aware that this is a complete farce. > How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? By being friends with people from different classes, by being interested and observant, and by having made a small class journey myself. I suggest you read the entire article, it might open your eyes as well.
  - teacup50 11y ago
    That is ... remarkably classist of you.
    - henrikschroder 11y ago
      How so?
    - bpchaps 11y ago
      It's funny how a discussion about social classes turns out this way. Downvotes instead of an actual non-vague response? Pssshhhh......

arcanus 11y ago

> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.

henrikschroder 11y ago
> being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.
- alistairSH 11y ago
  Being rich != upper-class. The first is an economic indicator, the second is a social indicator. As noted in the essay, a plumber can be rich, but will unlikely ever be upper-class. It's also worth noting that the "American Dream" is really just upper-middle-class. Single family house, 2.5 kids and a dog, a new-ish car, and enough disposable income to take an annual vacation. Very few people truly aspire to be upper-class (think Kennedy or Vanderbilt). Rich, maybe, but probably not upper class.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    I really do not think that is the American dream. If it were, people would have demanded better working rights and benefits by now. The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous.
    - alistairSH 11y ago
      The American Dream is to become filthy rich and/or famous. Among some demographics, that may be true. But, ask a classroom full of not-poor children, and answers are more likely to be along the lines of "I want to be an astronaut", not "I want to be Kim Kardashian".
    - Spooky23 11y ago
      Only for the striving and nouveau riche. Real rich people don't talk about money.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  > and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make. Are you sure that isn't an act? People pretend socially acceptable emotions all the time. If they donated the excess to the IRS (the IRS accepts donations!), I'd be a bit less skeptical.
  - lagadu 11y ago
    > Are you sure that isn't an act? It isn't. I'm from a economically below-average country in Europe, have lived in a couple others and I've settled down in the north. Almost none of my friends (particularly back home but here too) know how much I make because it's genuinely embarrassing. It's something of a "why do I make so much more when I'm no better than anyone else here?" feeling. Also I know it's not just me, I see it around me from other people in both countries; the only people I've ever talked about it with was with other friends I know earn similarly to due to similar circumstances at the time. edit: now that I think about it, while talking about earning a lot is generally shameful, discussing buying expensive things doesn't elicit the same feeling, despite being effectively the same.

paulsutter 11y ago

Is it possible that your friends are actually right? How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? You say class isn't about money, and I suppose it shouldn't be. Maybe they think class is about something even worse than money and they don't want any part of it. > Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality.

henrikschroder 11y ago
> Is it possible that your friends are actually right? In being oblivious to a well-documented phenomenon? That's not very likely. Obliviousness to class is a class marker for middle class. Major values of the middle class are equal opportunity and meritocracy, but existing class structures prevent that, so the middle class stick their heads in the ground and pretend that the upper classes have earned their position at the top, and that the lower classes haven't yet earned a higher position. Members of both the upper and lower classes are well aware that this is a complete farce. > How did you gain this ability they lack, to detect precisely who is upper-middle class? By being friends with people from different classes, by being interested and observant, and by having made a small class journey myself. I suggest you read the entire article, it might open your eyes as well.
- teacup50 11y ago
  That is ... remarkably classist of you.
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
    How so?
  - bpchaps 11y ago
    It's funny how a discussion about social classes turns out this way. Downvotes instead of an actual non-vague response? Pssshhhh......