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Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matte
by JPKab 11y ago
Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable.
The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner. It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.
- secstate 11y agoThat's fascinating. I remember reading something a while ago about the loss of regional accents (there's a great "Downeast" accent up here in Maine that no one has anymore, except lobstermen). People like to blame mass media, but in reality it's mass communication and the stigma of having a thick Brooklyn, Southie, or Downeast accent that encourages folks to pretend they don't have one. On the flip side, there is some evolutionary reasons why humans make quick decision when encountering new people or places, and I would guess it would take generations to change our hardwiring to NOT make those assumptions unconsciously. Even more brutal, if that hardwiring changes, there are circumstances where we'd likely be in trouble but for our split second assumptions. Fascinating story on NPR last year about a cop in an evacuated Wal-mart looking for an active shooter. Came around the corner to see a white woman and for half a second wondered why a civilian was still in the store. Then she shot at him, he returned fire and barely escaped with his life. So there's arguments to be made for learning how to avoid those assumptions too :) Crazy, mixed up world we humans make for ourselves.
- tamana 11y agoAnd remember: if he had encountered a black civilian at that moment, the civilian would not have escaped with his life.
- kbenson 11y agoJust because he was quick to classify with a false negative doesn't mean he would have been quick to classify with a false positive. Just because he's a police officer doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to be seen as an individual that makes his own decisions, and has his own opinions, views and predispositions. That you would make such a comment in a discussion about classism and racism is very ironic.
- fnovd 11y agoWhile the outright assertion that a black suspect would have been shot is unjustified, it seems counterintuitive to simultaneously make reference to one erroneous snap judgment (the cop assuming the white woman was not the shooter) without acknowledging the other side of that coin. Why is the cop an allowable surrogate of societal stereotypes when he assumes the white woman is not the shooter, but an "individual that makes his own decisions, and has his own opinions, views and predispositions" when an alternative hypothetical is presented?
- kbenson 11y ago> it seems counterintuitive to simultaneously make reference to one erroneous snap judgment (the cop assuming the white woman was not the shooter) without acknowledging the other side of that coin. No supporting evidence has been presented that a person will necessarily attribute the same level of certainty when positively or negatively associating a person to a category, either globally or under specific circumstances that match these. Identifying someone as a threat and discounting someone as not a threat may engage different levels of reasoning and heuristics in different circumstances, and assuming they are equivalent without justification is a mistake, in my opinion. > Why is the cop an allowable surrogate of societal stereotypes when he assumes the white woman is not the shooter, but an "individual that makes his own decisions, and has his own opinions, views and predispositions" when an alternative hypothetical is presented? His behavior with regard to race was classified based purely on his profession. I'm not sure how that's justifiable. Edit: To more directly address what I think your point is, we were presented a situation, not necessarily the police officer's reasoning and perspective. We don't know if the reason he thought she was not the shooter was her color, gender, clothing, bearing or some combination of those and other factors. There is little information to go on, so we shouldn't assume we know much.
- dboreham 11y agoPretty much everyone in or from Scotland (true or not) does this to some degree.
- wil421 11y agoFor me, the Scottish accent is the hardest of the English accents for me to understand. I work with English speakers from New Zealand/Australia and India to the UK/Ireland. English and Scottish sayings/slang are my favorite. Southerns have some good sayings but they are not as enjoyable for me to hear, maybe because I used to them.
- gilleain 11y agoIt's hard for lifts to understand as well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avp9aUkM5g0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Avp9aUkM5g0
- pjc50 11y agoI remember having to interpret between an Ulsterman and an Afrikaaner, both of whom were nominally speaking English but to mutual incomprehension.
- arethuza 11y agoThere are quite a lot of Scots accents and dialects - my wife, who is from near Glasgow, can't understand a word of anything said in the dialect I used as a kid as I'm from a completely different part of Scotland (Moray). Indeed when I was growing up even though I was in a rural area people who lived on farms had a noticeably different accent from those of us who lived in coastal fishing villages even though the farms might only be a kilometer or so from the coast. e.g. “A ken a ken im, but a da ken far a ken im fae.” or "I know I know him, but I don't know where I know him from". And of course, I was a "wee loonie" when I was younger. Edit: Of course, the biggest crime I commit when it comes to class is, of course, using "toilet" rather than "loo".
- mdpopescu 11y ago(Non-native English speaker here.) I worked for a Scot in Dublin for three months before I realized his accent wasn't Irish. I also had almost no problem understanding him. On the other hand, I find it almost impossible to read text that is supposed to show Scottish accent, like the one from arethuza.
- SEJeff 11y agoAlso being from the south (Kentucky, so not as far south perhaps), I see this as well. My approach is actually the inverse. Like racism or really any form of bigotry, I call it out when I see it and make it known this is _not_ ok. Very few HR departments are ok with bigotry of this sort. You shouldn't have to be ashamed of how you sound or where you're from. I do massively agree with you regarding people thinking southerners are stupid bigots. The way to fix that is to show them you're not, and make a strong point of showing it. It reminds me of a trip I recently took to Belfast. The day I was there, a car bomb from the IRA killed a police officer. A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no. So rhetorically, I asked how he was from northern ireland and not IRA. When he explained what was obvious, I said EXACTLY, this is much like people who support trump in America. The vocal minority often drown out the majority. Blindly categorizing someone in $group is bigotry plain and simple. Just because it comes from an educated person in tech doesn't make it any less so. Perhaps point out this hypocrisy.
- falsestprophet 11y ago"A cabbie asked me if I supported Donald Trump and told he we was surprised I didn't. He told me all Americans supported Trump. So I asked him if he was an IRA thug/terrorist, to which he naturally said no." It's hardly reasonable to compare being a member of a terrorist organization to supporting the leading candidate of one of two major parties. Consider just the sheer effort of participating in terrorism is far greater than voting.
- gilleain 11y agoNot only unreasonable, but also fairly unwise to be asking a Belfast cab driver if he's a member of the IRA.
- mineshaftgap 11y agoTrump is considered racist for wanting to secure the borders. Both parties leadership, made up of out of touch elites, have decided that illegal immigration is good for their interests, voters be damned. Dems need to have more people on gov assistance and the GOP wants cheap labor with no rights. I dislike Trump but if both sides are demonizing him then he is probably on the right track.
- wil421 11y agoI'm from Atlanta and still live here. You wouldnt know I was from the South because of my accent, I have none. I did kill my accent in grade school when kids made fun of me for saying words different. In my limited experience working with others, southern accent = ignorant bigot has not been something I have seen with my co workers. People usually just shrug it off but I can see why a country accent may be looked down upon by ignorant people. What part of the country do you work in?
- juejuli 11y ago> I did kill my accent in grade school when kids made fun of me for saying words different. Ha ha amazingly I can detect a southern accent even in your writing! ('different' when someone not from the south would say 'differently') Language is amazing isn't it.
- brandonmenc 11y agoI'm from Northwest Pennsylvania, and everyone there would also say "different." I know, because in high school I became friends with a highly educated family who moved into town after having lived all over the world, and made an effort to match their more intelligent sounding speech (which included, among other things, adding -ly to adverbs.) My mom still occasionally teases me that I say "eye-ther" instead of "eee-ther" (for "either.")
- jpindar 11y agoPennsyltucky is almost south. :)
- jdminhbg 11y agoOnly if you have trouble distinguishing Appalachia from the South.
- brandonmenc 11y agoWell... I'm from Erie, which is more like Cleveland or Buffalo than central PA.
- zeveb 11y agoIt's remarkable to me how folks who would never, ever be seen to say anything rude about other races (or who would only do so very obliquely) will quite loudly smirk about how much they hate Southerners, how stupid they think Southerners are &c. It's all just class. One can be just as intelligent with a Southern accent as one can be stupid with another.
- kyleblarson 11y agoIf one hasn't visited the South and relies on current events and news to derive an opinion on the area it's hard to blame them for thinking the southern states are in a race to the intellectual bottom.
- NoGravitas 11y agoI've lived my whole life in the South and think the southern states are in a race to the intellectual bottom -- though only the legislators are actually running in the race. A majority of the rest of us are just cheering them on.
- rgrieselhuber 11y agoThat's because there is often a social (status signaling) benefit to disparaging Southerners in many parts of the US. Particularly in coastal, urban areas.
- kbenson 11y agoIs this a predominantly east coast thing, or am I just oblivious?
- henrikschroder 11y agoSince no-one else mentioned it yet in this subthread, the phenomenon you are discussing is called a sociolect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociolect Basically, since class is culture, and cultures have language, a sociolect describes the language of a class, the ways you have to talk to perform that class. And, naturally, this goes both ways. Someone talking the sociolect of a certain class is seen as performing that class, and therefore belonging to the class. It should also be noted that the original article is itself a class performance! The author uses more complex words and grammar than necessary, thereby signalling academia or professional class. (Someone in the comments on that page wondered why this article had a more complex language compared to other articles by the same author, but didn't connect the dots...)
- WalterBright 11y agoBack in the middle ages, when the French conquered Britain, the ruling class spoke French and the peasants spoke English. A lot of French words flowed into English as a result. But even today, if people use the words of French origin rather than the old English words, one is regarded as being from the upper class, such as using 'purchase' instead of 'buy'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin#Historical_context https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Frenc...
- benpbenp 11y agoThe tendency to use "fancier" vocabulary has actually been noted as a tendency of the non-Upper class. Cf. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_and_non-U_English
- radiowave 11y agoThe language of aspiration. I like to think that "re-architect" is non-U.
- rwjwjuwjudf 11y ago
- forrestthewoods 11y agoSeattle is wildly bigoted against Southerners. Wildly. It's a real problem.
- santaclaus 11y agoReally? I'm originally from the south but have had zero issues in the northwest -- everyone is super mellow.
- Natsu 11y agoDo you speak with an identifiable accent?
- forrestthewoods 11y agoThey like you just fine. You're not like "them". You're not like the racist, bigoted, regressive, backwards, ignorant, inbreds of people who still live in the South. Most people out here can comprehend the concept that there are people in our country who conservative, religious, and smart. They'd shit themselves if they met someone who was conservative and smarter than they were. (This is where you insert a joke about if they're so smart then why are they conservative! hardy har har.)
- elandybarr 11y agoYou don't deserve the downvotes. I grew up in Seattle and still live there. If you voice any opinions that are not in a narrow band of the far left wing, they (including recent transplants) will attribute you holding that opinion to your place of origin, rather than listening to any justification you have for holding that opinion.
- forrestthewoods 11y agoMy girlfriend's company in Capitol Hill is super big on diversity. It's a huge part of their hiring process. They're about 50 to 60 people large. I asked her how many conservatives work there. Answer: zero. Along some axes Seattle is very diverse. But along others not so much.
- santaclaus 11y agoTim Cook has a southern accent.
- superdude264 11y agoIf it makes you feel better, Fred Brooks of System/360 ("mainframe") fame has a pronounced Southern accent, and is a Turing award winner.
- filmgirlcw 11y agoI can relate to much of this. I grew up in the South (though not rural or Appalachia) and at age 10, I made the conscientious decision to get rid of my southern accent. It sounded "unintelligent" to me but more than that, it seemed to bely my moral values. As judgmental as this sounds (and it's true, it is judgmental), I looked around at the values that are often attached to the South -- bigotry and racism being the big two -- and said, "no." So, at age 10, I lost my accent. I first stopped saying "y'all" -- but it quickly morphed into my entire accent changing. My parents/sister and most of my friends still had an accent, but I lost mine. With the exception of a few words or phrases, I don't even say southern colloquialisms. (I do still call every type of soda "Coke" -- but that's just Atlanta pride). When I take those tests that determine dialect, I never get the South, I almost always get midwest or Southern California. (That was the goal, so go me?) Even drunk, I don't slip back to a southern accent, simply because it doesn't exist as part of me anymore. The fact that I made that decision at age 10 -- and to be VERY clear, it was my own decision and not one pushed/encouraged by my parents (in fact, they probably rolled their eyes) -- I think says a lot about just how palpable those stereotypes that you mention are. Because at that age, when given the opportunity to lose an accent (I had speech impediment, was taking speech therapy a few times a week and had to basically re-train myself to talk. I decided to hack the system and get the accent I wanted in the process), I took it. I'll be totally honest, I don't regret it. But still, I do often think about the code switching that I chose to take on at that age and what that means. For my career now, which often includes going on television -- it's realistically probably served me well to have no accent. Even in high school working in retail, it often served me well to "not sound like I was from the South" when selling someone a $1500 digital video camera or charging $50 an hour to repair a computer. Still, I do think about it a lot. I think about why it was so important, even at that age, for me to reject something like my voice/accent. My husband (a software engineer) is a lot like you in that he is able to switch his accent on and off depending on who he talks to. When speaking with his parents or grandmother, his Tennessee twang comes out. With colleagues or people in our neighborhood, there is a slight hint of an accent, but nothing major. And he does it for the same reasons. No one wants to sound like a redneck in a professional setting, especially one stereotypically white-collar like software engineering. And yet, we don't talk about why that is the case -- or why where we are from matters.
- jamiepenney 11y agoI do the same thing. There's a particular way of speaking in the North of New Zealand that is associated with poor Maori - when I'm talking to my dad's family, I switch back to talking like that. I mask it in almost all other situations, but it's caught a few friends out at times. One told me it was like talking to a completely different person. My dad is a tradesperson, and his influence is the one thing I have never been able to completely hide, even in professional settings. It's gotten me a bit of grief over the years, as my response to stress is often to start swearing like a builder. On one hand, I like being able to code-switch easily. On the other hand, I feel like the only reason I can do it is because I had to, and the inability to completely mask my lower class upbringing has negatively impacted my opportunities at times. At this point, I just try to own it. If I don't, it's just persisting the negative stereotypes of people of Maori descent never making something of themselves. Gotta start breaking those biases down somehow.
- flashman 11y agoSounds like you're internalizing a really complicated situation in your head, bro.
- jklp 11y agoIn case people think you're being dismissive to the parent, this was a quote from a popular "drink driving" ad which ran in New Zealand - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWirGxV7Q8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWirGxV7Q8
- vinbreau 11y agoI'm from SE Texas and had a very thick accent growing up. I spent considerable effort getting rid of that accent around age 16. It's a double edged sword. I got so good at it that when I acquired a job at a newspaper in the town I was born in it caused some issues. Locals were upset about our paper hiring a girl from Indiana and another guy from Ohio. It was a very small town and the locals believed the local newspaper should be staffed by locals. When I would interview people they would get standoffish, accusing me of being a northerner, an outsider. I would tell them I could see the hospital I was born in from my office window, but they wouldn't believe me. My accent still comes out when I've had a few drinks or get tired. I've had a few people notice and think it's hysterical that I try to hide it. I too work in tech now and don't want anybody making snap judgments about me from the way I speak.
- ArkyBeagle 11y agoI use both accents with people, depending on context. It it not false nor disingenuous in my opinion because different sentences may work better with one or the other.
- r00fus 11y agoEverything you say is essentially also valid for immigrants (perhaps now citizens) who haven't lost their accent. While I agree this is not ideal, it's also built into human nature to use any/all hints to help generalize/categorize (likely because it determined survival in the past).
- hkmurakami 11y agoFascinating since I feel that a southern accent (perhaps a light one) can be an advantage in professional services (ex: law) since it communicates approachability and trustworthiness.
- cmurf 11y agoStereotypes. They exist for a reason, it's just that we think they are true more often than they are, so we end up making the wrong choice much of the time. Most elite Northerner whites are just as insulated as they think Southerners are, when it comes to traveling within their own country. In fact they typically know jack shit about Southern culture. There was a time when Southern accents were considered deliberately slow, enunciated, cultured. Yes, at that time whites were at the top of the class food chain, and yes most of that white privilege was racist or at least depended on it. But the accent is orthogonal to racism. We've just come to associate one with the other, using a stereotype. Another stereotype is white Northerners will pretty much assume white Southerners, identified as such by their drawl, may be a racist. Assumptions are traps.
- hoka 11y agoI lived in the south for some time, and being from the midwest ('no' accent), I was always called a yankee. Sometimes as a joke, but there were plenty of cases where it made me feel uncomfortable.
- coroutines 11y agoI think this kind of goes both ways. I've had instances where if I reveal my technical experience with the usual way I speak about such things - I get cold/rude service. This happened at one of those AT&T storefronts, Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, and at more than a few Apple Stores. I don't try to be intimidating, but I do want to inform the person "helping" me if I can... I've gotten into the habit of adopting a slower speech with a slight drawl in an effort to appear more relatable and honest about my intentions. It takes some patience as I have to describe my problem 'in a circle' and without a larger vocabulary. However, I don't get treated like sheltered upper-class and people seem to want to help me rather than avoid me. I've also avoid sounding like the stereotypical homosexual. Just the "accent" makes some people freak out and say I'm 'shoving it in their face'. I'm looking at you Aunt Marlene. I reserve the lisp for Vegas and Chippendales. Just something to think about...
- wizardforhire 11y agoDuuuude! Me too all the way... Except I don't change my accent. I just fuck with people and their stupid biases... I tell the truth, and when people are sacarcastic I take it all literally on purpose... And I make them explain everything, especially their stupid jokes!!! Oh man I love making people explain their stupid jokes to me. My favorite thing to say is, "I don't get it?" Or "yeaaah, I'm a literalist. I don't get sarcasm." ....and if the conversation hasn't turned to something real and interesting by this point and right when they're fedup and ready and to walk away and dissmis me... That's when I tell them I'm fucking with them in my best voice impression of theirs. It's all about vetting and breaking social facades. Most people and especially in tech were abussed by their peers as kids. They learned early on to judge and dismiss. You can't take it too personally and you always have to be ready to fight. The key is to come from a place of humility and not to be mean. Otherwise you'll just add to the problem and growing cultural divide. Oh yeah I'm from Oklahoma, I had a speech impediment as a kid so they tell me. I was beat up or confronted nearly every day in school by people who were afraid and didn't understand me. It didn't help that I went to school in the poorest school in town, that was also the most racially/culturally diverse school... And my mom was an administrator there. So all the worst kids had beaf with me because of my mom. But one of the best lessons I ever learned was "fuck the dumb shit"... This goes for all things in life.
- aryehof 11y agoWhile I was born in Australia, I worked in the UK for many years in a job that involved traveling the country. I would often see confusion as people realized I didn't fit their social groupings and stereotypes. It was a real advantage.
- nfriedly 11y agoNot quite the same thing, but I have a friend who naturally has a Midwestern accent. She told me once that when she used to be a waitress, she got way better tips by faking a British or Australian accent.
- hedonagenda 11y agoWear your accent with pride, if your co-workers' stereotyping persists then they're the bigots. Otherwise it becomes a cool personality trait others can't fake.