10 ms·

I think this guy may actually just be dumb. Yes, C-Suite positions make more money, and get to make more decisions. If he wanted to do that, it sounds like he c

by kdamken 11y ago

I think this guy may actually just be dumb. Yes, C-Suite positions make more money, and get to make more decisions. If he wanted to do that, it sounds like he could have at any time. Of course just being a programmer would earn you less. > Being a programmer for nearly 35 years... > I doubt I will ever be able to really retire. How do you have a good paying job like being a programmer/the other high level gigs he mentioned for 35 YEARS and still not have the assets to retire? How do you manage your money that poorly? Did you buy a house that was way too big? Some brand new cars you have a nice, several hundred dollar monthly payment on? Did you not save 30-50% of what was probably a very fat paycheck? It's one thing for someone working minimum wage their whole life to not be able to, but barring some crazy expense like medical bills, people with white collar jobs don't really have much of an excuse.

ulkesh 11y ago
I agree that materialistic thinking and living certainly contributes to lack of savings/retirement assets. But so does simply having a family, especially as a single parent or when the spouse doesn't work. You might say "well, the spouse can go work," but it's rarely that simple considering the costs of child care and how it may weigh on the spouse's potential salary. Then factor in if the spouse can even get a higher paying job to offset said costs. Then add in the trouble with the spouse even obtaining a job due to not having a bachelor degree. Everything feeds into everything else. No one situation can easily have the same resolution as another situation. I agree that there is no excuse to not trying. But there may be reasons for not succeeding.
- quaunaut 11y ago
  In America at least, the median salary for a Programmer is more than enough that with properly managed funds, you can have a spouse who doesn't work and still live quite well. Remember- the median income here is $52k. I'm in Boise, ID, one of the cheapest cost of living areas in America, and our junior developers start above that.
  - cushychicken 11y ago
    My first job was working for Micron in Boise, ID, and I lived like royalty on their college-hire engineer salary. Loved the town, wasn't into the work. I'd move back to Boise in a heartbeat.
    - quaunaut 11y ago
      It's really great, and I've found a wonderful job here with the best coworkers I've ever had. Also get to experiment with cool technologies quite often.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - wdmeldon 11y ago
    I live in a place with a slightly higher COL and make about that with no benefits. I also have about 4 years experience. Some people just make shitty career choices or don't get lucky/unlucky.
    - quaunaut 11y ago
      Then keep looking? The market favors the developer right now.
      - wdmeldon 11y ago
        Oh I do. But I hear this a lot more than I see it, especially in the Midwest without a degree.
        quaunaut 11y ago
        You're describing how my career started! Hahahah. Yeah, it can definitely be difficult, but the jobs are definitely out there. The easiest ways to find a job you don't hate that pays what it should is paying attention to the right technologies. Sadly, the percentage of crap jobs that are using older technologies like PHP, Java, and C# is much higher than those working with Ruby, JS, or Golang. This isn't to say it's impossible of course- but it can help narrow things down. So I'd say, try to find a technology you like most in your spare time, and look in that area. The second thing, is give remote work a shot. Sites like weworkremotely.com almost guarantee better conditions, because often the companies hiring are both better-informed and located somewhere that a 10-20k salary bump is barely noticeable, and even if it was, they know who butters their bread.
- mordocai 11y ago
  My spouse doesn't work. I'm nearly 25 and on/above target on my 401k savings and am slowly gaining money in regular savings accounts too. I made some bad decisions with debt a few years ago or I'd be even farther ahead. I live in Missouri though, which has pretty low cost of living.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    I appreciate your intention, but I don't think you can really lecture anyone on retirement savings when you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s myself and wouldn't do it. Check back in 30 years -- maybe you'll have gotten lucky and not had any major financial drains, or maybe you won't've. People in my family had hundreds of ks saved up for retirement and have lost it all in their 50s. Now they're in their 60s and have no foreseeable path to retirement. Unexpected events happen.
    - kdamken 11y ago
      Just out of curiosity, what happened to them? Besides significant medical or legal expenses, it's hard for me to picture.
      - mordocai 11y ago
        My parents also lost all of their funds in their 50s due to the stock market crash, but they were getting close to retirement and shouldn't have had their funds in high risk.
ryandrake 11y ago
Not sure it's fair to judge without knowing the whole story. Maybe he has other costly obligations that you don't know about. Maybe an expensive health condition. Stock market went down. Debts, whatever. Or, he just encountered a string of bad luck (left Apple in the late 90's--oops!). Without those facts, blanket statements like "how do you manage your money that poorly" are unfair.
- kdamken 11y ago
  True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by: - Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50% - Avoiding debt - Investing their money in low cost index funds
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    Much easier said than done, especially when you have children.
    - ryandrake 11y ago
      Or student loans, or alimony obligations, or sick parents to house and take care of, or any number of legitimate reasons why normal people don't tend to save 50% of their income. My guess is the "ISO Standard Ideal Saver" whose entire income is disposable, has perfect health, no dependents, no hobbies, no debt or other obligations, etc. is the exception, not the rule.
      - kdamken 11y ago
        Obviously you may not always be in a position to follow this exactly, but regardless of who you are it's a solid plan to aspire to. Even if you can only save $100 a month. Or if you can avoid using a credit card to buy things you don't really need, like a new tv to replace your old one that works fine. The average person who is not currently dealing with a significant life crisis could follow some of this, but often chooses not to, either due to not knowing any better or lack of self control.
MorePowerToYou 11y ago
Unfortunately, it seems like he dropped the ball in some major ways. So Apple started to take off a few years after you left? Then taking your fucking amazing technical and leadership skills to Apple! The post-startup is blowing it in terms of product development and the competition is eating their lunch? Then join the fucking competition. Programmers/engineers can change some important things. For example, our employers. If you're a strong engineer in a shitty situation, then find something better. It might even help you retire (like joining Apple in the late 90s).
- EarthIsHome 11y ago
  I agree changing employers is one thing to do. What do you do if you're not a strong engineer but in a shitty situation?
  - gedrap 11y ago
    Well, become a better one or just deal with the current situation? In my opinion, you can't just expect good things to happen.
temarsden 11y ago
Exactly my feelings after reading the article. He's either not making smart investments or not investing for retirement at all.
daxfohl 11y ago
My assumption would be that he means this a bit less than literally. I'm 40 now, have always lived frugally, and could reasonably retire now. But when retirement starts to look like a real thing in front of you, all you can think about is the "what ifs". Medical bills, kids college tuition in 15 years, stock market crashes, living to 120. And looking back, if I had the opportunity to make 10x, that's such a huge difference not in the amount of "stuff" I'd buy, but the amount of security I'd feel making the jump to retirement.
maerF0x0 11y ago
Mr Money Mustache was a programmer and retired in something near 10 yrs of work. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...
- kdamken 11y ago
  Based Mr. Money Mustache. Finding that blog completely changed how I view money.

by kdamken 11y ago

ulkesh 11y ago

I agree that materialistic thinking and living certainly contributes to lack of savings/retirement assets. But so does simply having a family, especially as a single parent or when the spouse doesn't work. You might say "well, the spouse can go work," but it's rarely that simple considering the costs of child care and how it may weigh on the spouse's potential salary. Then factor in if the spouse can even get a higher paying job to offset said costs. Then add in the trouble with the spouse even obtaining a job due to not having a bachelor degree. Everything feeds into everything else. No one situation can easily have the same resolution as another situation. I agree that there is no excuse to not trying. But there may be reasons for not succeeding.

quaunaut 11y ago
In America at least, the median salary for a Programmer is more than enough that with properly managed funds, you can have a spouse who doesn't work and still live quite well. Remember- the median income here is $52k. I'm in Boise, ID, one of the cheapest cost of living areas in America, and our junior developers start above that.
- cushychicken 11y ago
  My first job was working for Micron in Boise, ID, and I lived like royalty on their college-hire engineer salary. Loved the town, wasn't into the work. I'd move back to Boise in a heartbeat.
  - quaunaut 11y ago
    It's really great, and I've found a wonderful job here with the best coworkers I've ever had. Also get to experiment with cool technologies quite often.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- wdmeldon 11y ago
  I live in a place with a slightly higher COL and make about that with no benefits. I also have about 4 years experience. Some people just make shitty career choices or don't get lucky/unlucky.
  - quaunaut 11y ago
    Then keep looking? The market favors the developer right now.
    - wdmeldon 11y ago
      Oh I do. But I hear this a lot more than I see it, especially in the Midwest without a degree.
      - quaunaut 11y ago
        You're describing how my career started! Hahahah. Yeah, it can definitely be difficult, but the jobs are definitely out there. The easiest ways to find a job you don't hate that pays what it should is paying attention to the right technologies. Sadly, the percentage of crap jobs that are using older technologies like PHP, Java, and C# is much higher than those working with Ruby, JS, or Golang. This isn't to say it's impossible of course- but it can help narrow things down. So I'd say, try to find a technology you like most in your spare time, and look in that area. The second thing, is give remote work a shot. Sites like weworkremotely.com almost guarantee better conditions, because often the companies hiring are both better-informed and located somewhere that a 10-20k salary bump is barely noticeable, and even if it was, they know who butters their bread.
mordocai 11y ago
My spouse doesn't work. I'm nearly 25 and on/above target on my 401k savings and am slowly gaining money in regular savings accounts too. I made some bad decisions with debt a few years ago or I'd be even farther ahead. I live in Missouri though, which has pretty low cost of living.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  I appreciate your intention, but I don't think you can really lecture anyone on retirement savings when you're in your 20s. I'm in my 20s myself and wouldn't do it. Check back in 30 years -- maybe you'll have gotten lucky and not had any major financial drains, or maybe you won't've. People in my family had hundreds of ks saved up for retirement and have lost it all in their 50s. Now they're in their 60s and have no foreseeable path to retirement. Unexpected events happen.
  - kdamken 11y ago
    Just out of curiosity, what happened to them? Besides significant medical or legal expenses, it's hard for me to picture.
    - mordocai 11y ago
      My parents also lost all of their funds in their 50s due to the stock market crash, but they were getting close to retirement and shouldn't have had their funds in high risk.

ryandrake 11y ago

Not sure it's fair to judge without knowing the whole story. Maybe he has other costly obligations that you don't know about. Maybe an expensive health condition. Stock market went down. Debts, whatever. Or, he just encountered a string of bad luck (left Apple in the late 90's--oops!). Without those facts, blanket statements like "how do you manage your money that poorly" are unfair.

kdamken 11y ago
True - it's impossible to know every detail of his situation. That's why I put the disclaimer about his health. Regardless of those things though, for most people making a decent salary, they can put themselves in a good position for most scenarios by: - Saving as much as they can of what they're earning. Ideally at least 50% - Avoiding debt - Investing their money in low cost index funds
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  Much easier said than done, especially when you have children.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    Or student loans, or alimony obligations, or sick parents to house and take care of, or any number of legitimate reasons why normal people don't tend to save 50% of their income. My guess is the "ISO Standard Ideal Saver" whose entire income is disposable, has perfect health, no dependents, no hobbies, no debt or other obligations, etc. is the exception, not the rule.
    - kdamken 11y ago
      Obviously you may not always be in a position to follow this exactly, but regardless of who you are it's a solid plan to aspire to. Even if you can only save $100 a month. Or if you can avoid using a credit card to buy things you don't really need, like a new tv to replace your old one that works fine. The average person who is not currently dealing with a significant life crisis could follow some of this, but often chooses not to, either due to not knowing any better or lack of self control.

MorePowerToYou 11y ago

Unfortunately, it seems like he dropped the ball in some major ways. So Apple started to take off a few years after you left? Then taking your fucking amazing technical and leadership skills to Apple! The post-startup is blowing it in terms of product development and the competition is eating their lunch? Then join the fucking competition. Programmers/engineers can change some important things. For example, our employers. If you're a strong engineer in a shitty situation, then find something better. It might even help you retire (like joining Apple in the late 90s).

EarthIsHome 11y ago
I agree changing employers is one thing to do. What do you do if you're not a strong engineer but in a shitty situation?
- gedrap 11y ago
  Well, become a better one or just deal with the current situation? In my opinion, you can't just expect good things to happen.

temarsden 11y ago

Exactly my feelings after reading the article. He's either not making smart investments or not investing for retirement at all.

daxfohl 11y ago

My assumption would be that he means this a bit less than literally. I'm 40 now, have always lived frugally, and could reasonably retire now. But when retirement starts to look like a real thing in front of you, all you can think about is the "what ifs". Medical bills, kids college tuition in 15 years, stock market crashes, living to 120. And looking back, if I had the opportunity to make 10x, that's such a huge difference not in the amount of "stuff" I'd buy, but the amount of security I'd feel making the jump to retirement.

maerF0x0 11y ago

Mr Money Mustache was a programmer and retired in something near 10 yrs of work. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

kdamken 11y ago
Based Mr. Money Mustache. Finding that blog completely changed how I view money.