30 ms·

Classism in America

307 points by traverseda 11y ago

PaulHoule 11y ago
Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House Gang), etc. In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-) When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they will tell me that people don't like speeding in their residential neighborhood and to them I look more like a guy who doesn't like speeding in my residential neighborhood and not the kind of guy who likes to play Initial D in residential neighborhoods. Sometimes I've been a bystander when it looked like the cops showed up to arrest the first black person they saw, or when 15 police vehicles show up to arrest some black guy as thin as a rail and I even have a friend who grew up in a much richer family than me who had a bad attitude towards the police and has had his ass kicked, etc. Somehow though, even though I am not a cop and I don't particularly see things the way cops do, I've somehow absorbed enough protective coloration that I have a lot of "privilege" in this area, and less in some other areas.
- nxzero 11y ago
  Think it's very possible that you believe law enforcement thinks about the world differently than someone trying to avoid law enforcement. My understanding is that they share the same mental model of the world on average; which is not a critical view of either, just what I've heard from people that know much, much more about how different types of people think than me. To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same.
  - ska 11y ago
    To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same. This statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One of the main purposes of training for many jobs (lawyers, physicists, police, etc.) is explicitly to modify the mental model you apply to the world.
    - nxzero 11y ago
      Point is there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. While I'd agree that mental induction into a field does happen, that unlike in many fields, law enforcement has a very primal nature, and many that take on this domain are predoposed to it; within nature, the domain would be the relationship between predators and their prey.
      - ska 11y ago
        I don't think you are articulating your point very well, and the last bit seems to be veering towards ev-psych nonsense. Can you clarify what you are trying to say?
        nxzero 11y ago
        Happy to do so, please explicitly state a question, refrain from the tone you've taken, and state what if any experience you have on the topic.
        ska 11y ago
        Honestly didn't mean to have a "tone" - unless you mean my comment about evolutionary psychology, which is just balderdash in general. Anyway, I can't really see the connection you trying to make, are you saying that something innate to (some of) the people who choose policing as a career overrides their training? Or that police training is in some particular way unsuccessful in modifying mental models?
        nxzero 11y ago
        Yes, your response to evolutionary psychology was not constructive in my opinion; also, just to be clear, I'm very sure I make tone mistakes too. As for evolutionary psychology, I see your point, and happy with leaving it at that; meaning evolutionary psychology, like much of the field is not a science. Any rate, what I am saying is that some types of personalities (that develop prior entering a life of crime or law enforcement) predispose individuals to enter either one, the other, or both. Special forces has a saying, that is, you're either born to be a seal, or you're not; which is to say, training will never make you something that you're not, but it will weed out those that can't be trained; reference the seals, since they're at the extreme of having a very develop mental model prior to training.
- B1FF_PSUVM 11y ago
  > Paul Fussel (Class) > family there are no college professors, Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all. Hardy har har, sure, sure ...
  - PaulHoule 11y ago
    Class is probably Fussel's hardest book to rip up. Look at Muscle, the book he ghost wrote for his son to find out what he really thinks. To be fair when a graduate student I knew had an absentee PhD supervisor and a nervous breakdown and tried the "experiment" of not showing up for work and seeing how long it took for the paychecks to stop, the "experiment" strung on for most of a year until his dad realized he had no idea how to get in touch with his son, called up the department, and they called me up. He had managed department failing department stores for decades and he thought our college town was a "dump" because it didn't have a Nordstrom's. The social position of the college professor has changed a lot since Fussel's generation. Up until 1970 or so it was a path of upward social mobility, but a slowdown of tenure track hiring, social changes that doubled the number of professor's kids that could be recruited (counterbalanced enough by massive imports of male graduate students from hyperpatriarchical cultures to not threaten feminoid narriatives) mean it is no longer a path to social mobility, unless you mean trading a life of baking cookies at an organic cafe 9-5 to working 80 hours a week at 5 different colleges spread out over 200 miles while eating off food stamps...
hyperliner 11y ago
This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or Operation Homefront, but not once have those people wanted to volunteer at a veterans hospital. So what do we do to cover got guilt? "Ah, let's do a parade for them!!!"
- foobarrio 11y ago
  This is not something unique to the US. Mexican soap operas and movies often trump up the darker, poorer people as "noble savages" and native culture is celebrated. However if you look a bit closer, all the money and power is still in the hands of the whiter characters!
- Intermernet 11y ago
  The troops example is a tricky one. Many people disagree with war as a way to solve problems, but respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. Thus you can support the troops, but deplore the actions of those who caused them to be there in the first case. I do agree that volunteering at a veteran's hospital would be a perfect way to contribute though. Volunteering at any hospital would hopefully be a useful contribution to society!
  - wcummings 11y ago
    >respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. This doesn't really hold up, there are more dangerous jobs than "soldier" and they get no respect. No holidays. No parades. No ceremony. Militarism is a cult.
    - Intermernet 11y ago
      Militarism is a cult, and there are worse jobs, however blaming the soldiers for wars doesn't solve the problem. It's like blaming bank managers for the state of the economy. Idealistically, if you could convince all of the soldiers on both sides to not fight, then you stop the wars, but realistically you need to convince the populations and leaders of the states they are fighting on behalf of that war is a bad idea in the first place. This cult is propagated by civilians more than soldiers.
sevensor 11y ago
This is well worth the read. It's far too easy not to perceive the class issues she brings up, because we're so uncomfortable discussing them. And if you're affluent, it's much easier not to think of yourself as part of a self-perpetuating privileged class.
known 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility
- kelukelugames 11y ago
  I feel programmers have made it econimically. I know a large number of devs in their 30s who make over 200k a year. But we haven't climbed the social ladder as well. Maybe that follows the money.
  - mamon 11y ago
    As old saying goes: "White tie fits one well only in third generation" (sorry for the ad-hoc translation). So your friend's grandchildren should be up on the social ladder.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Another old saying (in NYC): How far from the docks to Wall Street? 3 generations. And 3 generations back again.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    Working where?
  - norea-armozel 11y ago
    Yep, that's definitely my situation in life. Still working class despite the salary. It's like the areas that are suppose to be open to me seem hostile to my mere presence. I'm not sure if it's the way I walk, talk, act, or whatever. Just the look on certain people's faces really tell me that I'm not welcomed or "one of them" without a single word said on the matter. It's so weird being aware of it now after all these years.
    - smm2000 11y ago
primodemus 11y ago
Relevant: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/
- RodericDay 11y ago
  > the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink, insisting the problem doesn't exist and shouldn't be spoken of. > Politically, the left pretends class doesn’t exist ...what?
  - throwanem 11y ago
    One of OP's early theses is that the left is all about economic class, but can't admit social classes exist, so conflates them with economic class in order to talk about them.
    - RodericDay 11y ago
      Who exactly can't admit social classes exist? Karl Marx was very aware of the existence of status classes running counter to economic classes (the status of wealthy jewish people of low-status in Europe was fascinating to proto-sociologists, many of them jewish), he just theorized that economic class was "the big one" from which the others stemmed. Jews as a social class weren't sprung from the ether, though. Max Weber, another leftist considered one of the fathers of sociology, named the "Status Class", related to prestige, one of the three main ones along economic and political allegiance ones. Modern intersectionalists routinely bring up how arbitrary many of our social predilections seem to be, such as "tan white > white > black", or "pink is for girls", and look at these chicken-and-egg situations trying to figure out where they started. Where does the impetus for this bloggers' parents verbally check[ing] us in a heartbeat if the vowel in our "to" started getting too schwa-like come from? The big mistake made by the author of that piece is the idea that they can isolate class and talk about it as its own thing. It's a very scientist-like analytic-approach (kinda like Marx isolating economic factors in spite of the others), but seeing as the author is openly against abolishing classes, it seems to be in service of discrediting the efforts of the economically-conscious-left ("even if you abolish economic classes social classes will prevail, so don't bother") rather than as an honest intellectual inquiry. With this line: > Please note: for purposes of this discussion, the topics of race, ethnicity, gender, immigration status, and native language are all derails of the topic, which is class. The author seems more concerned with prevailing than with being correct.
JPKab 11y ago
Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner. It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.
- secstate 11y ago
  That's fascinating. I remember reading something a while ago about the loss of regional accents (there's a great "Downeast" accent up here in Maine that no one has anymore, except lobstermen). People like to blame mass media, but in reality it's mass communication and the stigma of having a thick Brooklyn, Southie, or Downeast accent that encourages folks to pretend they don't have one. On the flip side, there is some evolutionary reasons why humans make quick decision when encountering new people or places, and I would guess it would take generations to change our hardwiring to NOT make those assumptions unconsciously. Even more brutal, if that hardwiring changes, there are circumstances where we'd likely be in trouble but for our split second assumptions. Fascinating story on NPR last year about a cop in an evacuated Wal-mart looking for an active shooter. Came around the corner to see a white woman and for half a second wondered why a civilian was still in the store. Then she shot at him, he returned fire and barely escaped with his life. So there's arguments to be made for learning how to avoid those assumptions too :) Crazy, mixed up world we humans make for ourselves.
  - tamana 11y ago
    And remember: if he had encountered a black civilian at that moment, the civilian would not have escaped with his life.
Retric 11y ago
Culture in many ways is an adaptation to local conditions magnified though feedback loops. Deserts promote different types of stories vs. grasslands vs. seashore. Now days location is less important, but wealth and poverty are also worlds apart. What IMO get's lost in these discussions is poor people can make rational choices that conflict with wealthy culture. "Sorry, broke" is a shield for many things making savings often money that you simply don't get to spend. What happens when your 50 and owe more money than you will make in the rest of your life?
RodericDay 11y ago
It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to position myself as an enemy of classism: I'm pretty classist. And by "pretty classist", I don't mean in the sense of "Everybody's a Little Bit Racist" or "gee, internalized misogyny is hard to totally eradicate". No, I mean closer to Segregation and PUAs. > My parents were born of blue collar families in blue collar communities and were of concerted agreement that their life goals were to flee that class and never have anything to do with it again. Elevating their – and their progeny's – social class was the family project. They enlisted my sister and I in this project, and were explicit, formal, and unapologetic about it. > I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense." The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to class, is also pretty puzzling. > A thing that has been very frustrating to me is that most books and other discussions I have been able to find that really address that social classes are cultures have come out of the Right. Again this pattern: the Right, at least, admits the phenomenon exists, mostly so they can hate on people (also see "culture of poverty"); the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink, insisting the problem doesn't exist and shouldn't be spoken of. The Left promotes class-consciousness with the goal of abolishing unjust and arbitrary delineations, in its many dimensions (including the extremely well acknowledged ones such as vernacular). The idea that "the Left" has no notion that a poor Led Zeppelin fan can be higher class than the wife of a wealthy drug-dealer is insane. edit: reply to gjm (because I got flagged too much) The author - belittles their opposition (ie: "It is a common confusion – or intellectual dodge – to conflate social class with economic class."), - expresses veiled dismay that they can't "describe an ethnic, regional, or national culture with contempt, as broken or defective", - is against legal prejudices today, but against any measures that attempt to correct the damage caused by those legal prejudices in the past ("I'm on-board with the idea that all people have equal rights before the law, and entitled to a baseline level of respect as fellow humans, but I'm not sure how much further than that I go." - ie: the arrangement looks like this today, deal with it as if it was fair regardless of how we got here) - and concludes with "let's leave race out of it for the moment", echoing much of the talk by LessWrong-types "tired" of talk of sexism and racism. This piece is not just a humble description of how they see the world, it's very prescriptive. The overall impression I get is a righteous defense of the "fuck you, got mine" mentality, very inspired by Ayn Rand.
apalmer 11y ago
Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success. Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Donald Trump from within the republican party is he is projecting 'lower' class based signifiers and in effect turning power from the 'upper' class republicans to the 'lower' class republicans.
- learc83 11y ago
  George W. Bush played up the good ole boy from Texas image. Even though he was from a wealthy East Coast family and went to Yale. He was definitely trying to project an image of being from a lower social class, and he played to issues that lower social classes were more likely to support.
  - brational 11y ago
    But the difference is that he still did whatever the wealthy republicans wanted too.
zeveb 11y ago
Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much as I personally have never understood the point collegiate athletics, it makes a lot of sense in this context. I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past — or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day won't come. > The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.' > I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense." What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?
- apalmer 11y ago
  while your points are true, its kind of the whole point of the article is 'economic' (and of course race) are first-order approximations of 'social' class but they are NOT the same thing, only approximately overlapping. Pretty much the whole point of the article.
llull 11y ago
The truth of the essay is illustrated by studies that show lower social mobility over longer generational windows, i.e. ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's. The intangible cultural inheritance of social class is more lasting than fluctuations in material wealth.
- morgante 11y ago
  Do you have links to those studies? I've always found the reflexivity of class to be somewhat interesting. Economically, my family is in the bottom quartile of the country—but it never felt like that. They definitely raised me with "upper class" values and attitudes. (For example, there was never even a shadow of a doubt about whether I'd attend college.) My grandparents, on the other hand, were quite well off. As such, I've always felt more comfortable and fit in with people whose families have incomes vastly exceeding my family's.
- erroneousfunk 11y ago
  > "ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's" Wouldn't this actually meant that the average of one's parents, grandparent's, and great-grandparent's income quintiles is a better predictor than one's parents alone? (Unless these studies only looked at personal income of male relatives instead of household income?) The income of the grandfather is still a single point subject to fluctuations. Where are these studies?
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1] In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans. Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs. [1] The New York Times had an excellent Op-Ed from a few years back, called: "What People Buy Where" http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-people-buy-where.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-peo...
- tamana 11y ago
  For shoes new yorkers walk a lot than others and need better shoes.
  - nerfhammer 11y ago
    you also need different shoes for different weather conditions.
    - erikpukinskis 11y ago
      you also need a lot of shoes if you want to be fashionable, and New Yorkers are damn fashionable
- 11y ago
gragas 11y ago
>disproportionately impact the impecunious – the almost-certain forthcoming hike in T fares looms large in my anxieties right now – but I am a professional with an advanced degree and possession of the shibboleths of the professional class This actually hurt to read. It sounds like an excerpt from a Nabokov novel. (Don't get me wrong, Nabokov is a fantastic writer. But there is a time and place for writing like that, and this is not one of them.)
norea-armozel 11y ago
I think the question of social class applies to my situation quite well considering that despite the fact that I'm a programmer and have a degree in computer science I honestly don't fit in well with people who would be described as middle class. Working class still seems to apply to me despite my salary and job.
- brational 11y ago
  This is widely true in a lot of other engineering disciplines, especially those that are more hands-on. Anecdotally, in certain parts of the country this is why engineers (think mechanical, civil, etc) are viewed a large step below "true white collar management" types.
kbenson 11y ago
I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof. For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with "booboo" (!). I find it distracting, to the point that I've lost the main thread of the article and I'm now wondering what the author was trying to accomplish with this style, if anything. I often find myself switching to a different form of conversing when debating here, but I would like to think that's because I'm trying to be precise, and so I switch to a more precise method of expression. Sometimes that makes it into my speech, for example when I'm trying to explain or diagnose a problem. It can be detrimental to communication if leaned on too heavily though.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  Since it's an essay about class as performance, I thought it was obviously playing with the professional/academic performance that the piece is itself?
- nkurz 11y ago
  You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her bona fides (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their comprehension. Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of register. My background is somewhat similar to hers, although without the parental guidance. Perhaps as a result, my acculturation was less successful. I think this is a brilliant article, and (having read and enjoyed many of your other comments on this site) I encourage you start from the assumption that the author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". A totally valid response, I was asking honestly, not sarcastically. :) The truth is, I'm not exposed to southern accents very often outside of media. I've lived and worked an hour north of SF most my life, and I think I'm more likely to identify a British or Australian accent in the area than I am a southern one. Unless they are hiding their accent, which I guess is entirely possible considering this thread. > Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of register. ... I encourage you start from the assumption that the author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece. I assumed the author was completely aware of the tone, I just wasn't sure how to interpret it myself in the short amount I had read. > I think this is a brilliant article Well, with that endorsement, I'll put extra effort into finishing it then. Not that I stopped for reasons pertaining to the content or delivery, I just ran out of time and all too often interesting articles are never finished due to that (the number tabs I have open in an obviously unsuccessful attempt to work around this behavior actually make for a comical view). Oh, and thanks for the compliment, It's (usually) nice to be noticed. :) After you've been following discussions on HN a while, certain names start to stick out when you see them, and I've definitely noticed yours (for positive reasons!)
nibs 11y ago
There has always been, and always will be, class in a society of people. Even among "progressive" societies like coastal North American cities, classism exists. It may be seperating people based on what level of educational attainment you have, or even how politically correct you act around peers (the more the better...?), but it will exist no matter what. Status was once (and perhaps still is) a useful metric for the level of contribution someone offered a community - doctors, lawyers and others like them get status because status is what a community could use in lieu of payment as a means of expressing gratitude for the useful service the person provides. We attribute status to athletes, musicians, companies and others for the same reason - they give us something we want. In order to feel like one belongs you must have acceptance from your community, be it a street gang or a country club. One of the most critical dimensions of the character of a person is how you treat someone that you do not have to treat well. So we should use our progressive monocultural aspirations for good (treat people fairly and as they want to be treated) instead of just talking about how much you want to save the world while you reject people who have a lesser degree than you.
henrikschroder 11y ago
Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who have also made class journeys, are much more in tune, they have no problems seeing class and classism. One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of class as culture, and class as performance. > It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it. Holy crap. Yes. A thousand times yes.
- arcanus 11y ago
  > Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.
  - henrikschroder 11y ago
    > being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.
pchristensen 11y ago
If you're interested in this, the Cracked podcast discussed this article and related articles. http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-system/ http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-system/
stcredzero 11y ago
Thus social class and economic class are not identical, they are intersectional. They relate and they mediate one another, but they are not the same thing. And both of these are not identical to race in the US, but their perception is indeed still partially mediated by race.
- pluma 11y ago
  I find it frustrating that while everyone seems to be fine discussing privilege afforded by ethnicity, lack of disabilities or gender, the elephant in the room tends to get ignored: people like Zuckerberg or Gates weren't just privileged because they were born in the right skin (including the dangly bits) but also because they were born into the right families. If you are studying in an Ivy League tier university in the US and your parents know influential people in major companies, you are incredibly privileged. And as the article lays out, this actually reflects two forms of privilege: social class and economic class (of parents, close family, potential love interests and eventually yourself as an aggregate). The number of trans, non-male, non-white or non-heterosexual founders and leaders in major tech companies gets talked about every now and then. But I doubt any of those (proportional to the absolute distribution across the population) is significantly more concerning than the number of people from lower social and economical classes in the same roles. Of course these attributes can compound (e.g. "race" is often used as a handle for social class) but diversity needs to take all factors into account in order to fulfil its promise. Nepotism isn't just about skin colour and dangly bits, and class discrimination is far easier to hide behind "culture fit" than other forms of discrimination.
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    According to the op, class discrimination is "culture fit."
jqm 11y ago
I have a friend I grew up with in Florida that for some reason developed an extremely thick southern accent (I didn't). He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse. Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger. His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations. Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being smart:)
WalterBright 11y ago
I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed like a slob, the latter in a nice suit. I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing. The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.
- CPLX 11y ago
  The Wire, which of course is an absolutely excellent longform meditation on class, has a couple really great scenes illustrating this exact thing: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY
  - WalterBright 11y ago
    For other good (albeit fictional) accounts of social class, there's "Gone With The Wind's" treatment of Rhett Butler by southern society, and "The Blue Max's" treatment of Bruno Stachel who rises from being an innkeeper's son to a role formerly reserved only for the nobility. (Neither is about money, but manners and behavior.)
    - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
      UK class is all about manners. And money. The upper classes are effortlessly sociable, polished, and polite, even if they think you're an idiot - unless you're the help, in which case they aren't. There are some subtle markers you can only learn either by being born into them or being told about them. E.g. when middle class are introduced they say "Pleased to meet you." When upper class people meet they say "How d'you do?" - and if someone says "Pleased to meet you, they immediately know they're not dealing with one of their own." I spent some time on the edges of the upper class scene, and the polish often hides drama and resentment - possibly because public school in the UK can sometimes seem to be a bizarre form of institutionalised child abuse. It's hard to imagine someone who's set to inherit a gigantic country mansion feeling that life has given them a raw deal, but I've seen it happen. There's also an almost complete absence of passionate creativity. I've seen working class kids (almost literally) kill to become musicians or artists. The upper classes sometimes drift into it, but the work is often derivative and shallow, and doesn't have the kick it has when someone has had to struggle.
dataker 11y ago
I live in South America and classes here are, similar to Europe, not really tied to your money. It's really funny: I grew up in a slum, but software now gives me as much money as politicians and senior executives of public companies. In my first paying contract overseas, I went to the most expensive restaurant in my town. Although I wore the same clothes and belonged to the same race, everybody was staring at me. The waitress would always reiterate the price of meals. I actually felt pretty good.
- leoc 11y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU ;)
TaylorGood 11y ago
Have a friend with tattoos everywhere; his recent remarks about a local yacht club had a layer of loath attached. It's as if he despises my 1) access and 2) ability to stroll around (no visible tattoos). He grew up inland, I didn't. His mom thinks money is bad, my family doesn't. The difference in the details make all the difference !
cblock811 11y ago
Yeah I got rid of my accent years ago when I realized that stigma existed. I also try to sound...less gay (idk how else to explain it) when I'm dealing with new people. Deeper voice, neutral accent, etc. It's pretty annoying to have to dodge random prejudices but that's life I guess.
Animats 11y ago
From the article: "Most people are very ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more than one degree above or below their own." Somewhere, there must be a "how to" guide for social class. There's a questionnaire, but other than some meaningless content on Quora, not much guidance.[1] Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect. The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's quite funny. Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been considered tacky to have advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football jocks in high school, but not college. Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed monthly. [1] http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Rules%20of%20Social%20Class.htm http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Ru... [2] http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=pwpl http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg
- kazinator 11y ago
  If you're ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more one degree below you, that's simply due to not watching television.
  - clock_tower 11y ago
    And not watching television is a very upper-class thing to do...
  - morgante 11y ago
    I didn't watch television as a child, but I do now and I'd say I'm still very ignorant of the norms/values of social classes 2 or more degrees below my own. Keep in mind that television itself has significant class segmentation. The vast majority of characters on shows I watch are from my class or present as such. On the occasion that I do see something from a lower class, it's quite jarring and I also have a lot of trouble differentiating race and class in such scenarios (>90% of the "lower class" characters I see are African-American).
BackPropagate 11y ago
"Contrariwise, a patient of mine – who is a white woman of almost my age – who is covered with tattoos, speaks with an Eastie accent, is over 200lbs, and wears spandex and bling and heavy make-up, gets screamed at by an ER nurse for med-seeking when she hadn't asked for medication at all, and just wanted an x-ray for an old bone-break she was frighted she had reinjured in a fall." Fatties shouldn't expect medical professionals to bend over backwards to help them. They should be eating less and not being a burden on the rest of us. Fact is, the "fat class" is really a class in America.
gscott 11y ago
The authors family sought to raise their blue collar class to a higher one. I have for years thought of a non-profit that might do this by sponsoring children into music instrument lessons, horseback riding, and language lessons. Things that most (say 75% of people) cannot afford. This could be done in group lessons to save on cost.
- mdpopescu 11y ago
  I don't think it's simply a "can't afford" issue. If the parents don't make a conscious, long-term effort (like in the author's case), you risk a huge blowback from them when the kids start acting "strangely". Nerds get bullied in school for being different than jocks; imagine having that happen with everyone you encounter, including your parents.
lemoncucumber 11y ago
LiveJournal is so low class, the author should've picked a nice middle-class platform like Medium to publish this </s>
- sosuke 11y ago
  For fun I wanted to see what it would look like http://i.imgur.com/IiLVfU5.png http://i.imgur.com/IiLVfU5.png There is often a bit of truth in a joke. I wonder if the "medium" would change the reception of a story.
- nhf 11y ago
  In all seriousness, I've only run into two groups that (in my personal experience) still use LJ: Eastern Europeans, especially Russians, and pop-culture related "creators" (which is the broad brush that I'm painting fan art, fanfiction, etc with). It's a really weird mix.
- notlisted 11y ago
  Funny, to me it was an indicator of her age (ie when she started using the Internet). I have the same reaction to articles on blogger. I associate Medium with minimalist know-it-all bearded fixie hipster programmers (under 35). :p Still better then the SV(u)btle peeps (but less exclusive, by invitation only peeps, let's keep it classy!).
  - jholman 11y ago
    I agree with you (strongly about medium, though I disagree about blogger). Or, to put it in terms more related to the article... Medium is nouveau riche, LJ is authentic aristocracy. If you think Medium is "nice middle-class", it means you're lower-middle-class. PS: I can't tell if I'm kidding or not. PPS: what does it say about my class that I thought these post-scripts are a good idea?
    - notlisted 11y ago
      Correct insertion of the extra P tells me so much about you. This whole social class stuff is quite funny when you start thinking about it. I'm terribly judgmental it seems...
Spooky23 11y ago
I moved from NYC to the rural reaches of upstate New York when I was 11. My family and folks I hung out had a mixed of "Lunged Idland", Brooklyn and Irish accents. Nobody had any idea what I was saying for several months after moving, with good reason. The accent still pops out once in awhile, usually when I'm tired or agitated. Some folks find it grating or aggressive. I just tell them to screw off.
turar 11y ago
A couple of related posts that I found very interesting and are probably worth sharing here: A reddit discussion on bullshitting and class: http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generation_y_why_young_voters_are_backing_the/caqq8th?context=2 http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generatio... with a link to this piece: http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-school-days-the-building-of-upper-class-solidarity/ http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-s...
- turar 11y ago
  Just realized the second link is broken and can't edit the original comment. Fixed link: http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the-building-of-upper-class-solidarity/ http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the...
Tycho 11y ago
The telltale sign of classicism in modern America is how the upper middle classes continue to put up with inflated college tuition fees. They're basically paying to keep the lower classes out.
aandrieiev 11y ago
I'm wondering if using "IIII" instead of "IV" for the 4th chapter was intentional or it has to do with the social class of the author =)
MadManE 11y ago
I had an almost jarring occurrence of this happen when I graduated with my BSME. My first name is traditionally associated with old rednecks. I sent out a hundred or so resumes before I got any response at all - an offhand comment about duct tape engineering. For whatever reason, that clicked with me. So, I added my middle name to my resume and had a job within a week. I've been going by my middle name professionally ever since.
jiiam 11y ago
Interesting, but annoyingly condescending.

307 points by traverseda 11y ago

Social class is astonishingly multidimensional as pointed out in the works of C. Wright Mills (Power Elite), Paul Fussel (Class), Tom Wolfe (The Pump House Gang), etc. In my extended family there are no college professors, but a lot of cops, even a lot of women that are cops. (There are some accountants, but they are forensic accountants ;-) When I get stopped by the cops I don't worry, they like my attitude, they will tell me that people don't like speeding in their residential neighborhood and to them I look more like a guy who doesn't like speeding in my residential neighborhood and not the kind of guy who likes to play Initial D in residential neighborhoods. Sometimes I've been a bystander when it looked like the cops showed up to arrest the first black person they saw, or when 15 police vehicles show up to arrest some black guy as thin as a rail and I even have a friend who grew up in a much richer family than me who had a bad attitude towards the police and has had his ass kicked, etc. Somehow though, even though I am not a cop and I don't particularly see things the way cops do, I've somehow absorbed enough protective coloration that I have a lot of "privilege" in this area, and less in some other areas.

nxzero 11y ago
Think it's very possible that you believe law enforcement thinks about the world differently than someone trying to avoid law enforcement. My understanding is that they share the same mental model of the world on average; which is not a critical view of either, just what I've heard from people that know much, much more about how different types of people think than me. To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same.
- ska 11y ago
  To be clear, it would be foolish to say all people, even of a given type, think the same. This statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One of the main purposes of training for many jobs (lawyers, physicists, police, etc.) is explicitly to modify the mental model you apply to the world.
  - nxzero 11y ago
    Point is there are exceptions, but they are just that, exceptions. While I'd agree that mental induction into a field does happen, that unlike in many fields, law enforcement has a very primal nature, and many that take on this domain are predoposed to it; within nature, the domain would be the relationship between predators and their prey.
    - ska 11y ago
      I don't think you are articulating your point very well, and the last bit seems to be veering towards ev-psych nonsense. Can you clarify what you are trying to say?
      - nxzero 11y ago
        Happy to do so, please explicitly state a question, refrain from the tone you've taken, and state what if any experience you have on the topic.
        ska 11y ago
        Honestly didn't mean to have a "tone" - unless you mean my comment about evolutionary psychology, which is just balderdash in general. Anyway, I can't really see the connection you trying to make, are you saying that something innate to (some of) the people who choose policing as a career overrides their training? Or that police training is in some particular way unsuccessful in modifying mental models?
        nxzero 11y ago
        Yes, your response to evolutionary psychology was not constructive in my opinion; also, just to be clear, I'm very sure I make tone mistakes too. As for evolutionary psychology, I see your point, and happy with leaving it at that; meaning evolutionary psychology, like much of the field is not a science. Any rate, what I am saying is that some types of personalities (that develop prior entering a life of crime or law enforcement) predispose individuals to enter either one, the other, or both. Special forces has a saying, that is, you're either born to be a seal, or you're not; which is to say, training will never make you something that you're not, but it will weed out those that can't be trained; reference the seals, since they're at the extreme of having a very develop mental model prior to training.
B1FF_PSUVM 11y ago
> Paul Fussel (Class) > family there are no college professors, Fussel's Class was sort of OK, but then he went on a wish-fulfillment tripe dump, whereupon he wished college professors like himself to be above it all. Hardy har har, sure, sure ...
- PaulHoule 11y ago
  Class is probably Fussel's hardest book to rip up. Look at Muscle, the book he ghost wrote for his son to find out what he really thinks. To be fair when a graduate student I knew had an absentee PhD supervisor and a nervous breakdown and tried the "experiment" of not showing up for work and seeing how long it took for the paychecks to stop, the "experiment" strung on for most of a year until his dad realized he had no idea how to get in touch with his son, called up the department, and they called me up. He had managed department failing department stores for decades and he thought our college town was a "dump" because it didn't have a Nordstrom's. The social position of the college professor has changed a lot since Fussel's generation. Up until 1970 or so it was a path of upward social mobility, but a slowdown of tenure track hiring, social changes that doubled the number of professor's kids that could be recruited (counterbalanced enough by massive imports of male graduate students from hyperpatriarchical cultures to not threaten feminoid narriatives) mean it is no longer a path to social mobility, unless you mean trading a life of baking cookies at an organic cafe 9-5 to working 80 hours a week at 5 different colleges spread out over 200 miles while eating off food stamps...

hyperliner 11y ago

This is a very good article. In America, there is also an example where we "build up" the social class of some segment to compensate for our self-centered guilt. Take the example of the military service. The vast majority of people would rather be at the mall and let someone else fight and die for the country. But the "I support our troops" bumper sticker is everywhere, or maybe they sent ten bucks to Fisher House or Operation Homefront, but not once have those people wanted to volunteer at a veterans hospital. So what do we do to cover got guilt? "Ah, let's do a parade for them!!!"

foobarrio 11y ago
This is not something unique to the US. Mexican soap operas and movies often trump up the darker, poorer people as "noble savages" and native culture is celebrated. However if you look a bit closer, all the money and power is still in the hands of the whiter characters!
Intermernet 11y ago
The troops example is a tricky one. Many people disagree with war as a way to solve problems, but respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. Thus you can support the troops, but deplore the actions of those who caused them to be there in the first case. I do agree that volunteering at a veteran's hospital would be a perfect way to contribute though. Volunteering at any hospital would hopefully be a useful contribution to society!
- wcummings 11y ago
  >respect that soldiers aren't actually responsible for said wars, and are doing a horrible job in horrible circumstances. This doesn't really hold up, there are more dangerous jobs than "soldier" and they get no respect. No holidays. No parades. No ceremony. Militarism is a cult.
  - Intermernet 11y ago
    Militarism is a cult, and there are worse jobs, however blaming the soldiers for wars doesn't solve the problem. It's like blaming bank managers for the state of the economy. Idealistically, if you could convince all of the soldiers on both sides to not fight, then you stop the wars, but realistically you need to convince the populations and leaders of the states they are fighting on behalf of that war is a bad idea in the first place. This cult is propagated by civilians more than soldiers.

sevensor 11y ago

This is well worth the read. It's far too easy not to perceive the class issues she brings up, because we're so uncomfortable discussing them. And if you're affluent, it's much easier not to think of yourself as part of a self-perpetuating privileged class.

known 11y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

kelukelugames 11y ago
I feel programmers have made it econimically. I know a large number of devs in their 30s who make over 200k a year. But we haven't climbed the social ladder as well. Maybe that follows the money.
- mamon 11y ago
  As old saying goes: "White tie fits one well only in third generation" (sorry for the ad-hoc translation). So your friend's grandchildren should be up on the social ladder.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Another old saying (in NYC): How far from the docks to Wall Street? 3 generations. And 3 generations back again.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  Working where?
- norea-armozel 11y ago
  Yep, that's definitely my situation in life. Still working class despite the salary. It's like the areas that are suppose to be open to me seem hostile to my mere presence. I'm not sure if it's the way I walk, talk, act, or whatever. Just the look on certain people's faces really tell me that I'm not welcomed or "one of them" without a single word said on the matter. It's so weird being aware of it now after all these years.
  - smm2000 11y ago

primodemus 11y ago

Relevant: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/

RodericDay 11y ago
> the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink, insisting the problem doesn't exist and shouldn't be spoken of. > Politically, the left pretends class doesn’t exist ...what?
- throwanem 11y ago
  One of OP's early theses is that the left is all about economic class, but can't admit social classes exist, so conflates them with economic class in order to talk about them.
  - RodericDay 11y ago
    Who exactly can't admit social classes exist? Karl Marx was very aware of the existence of status classes running counter to economic classes (the status of wealthy jewish people of low-status in Europe was fascinating to proto-sociologists, many of them jewish), he just theorized that economic class was "the big one" from which the others stemmed. Jews as a social class weren't sprung from the ether, though. Max Weber, another leftist considered one of the fathers of sociology, named the "Status Class", related to prestige, one of the three main ones along economic and political allegiance ones. Modern intersectionalists routinely bring up how arbitrary many of our social predilections seem to be, such as "tan white > white > black", or "pink is for girls", and look at these chicken-and-egg situations trying to figure out where they started. Where does the impetus for this bloggers' parents verbally check[ing] us in a heartbeat if the vowel in our "to" started getting too schwa-like come from? The big mistake made by the author of that piece is the idea that they can isolate class and talk about it as its own thing. It's a very scientist-like analytic-approach (kinda like Marx isolating economic factors in spite of the others), but seeing as the author is openly against abolishing classes, it seems to be in service of discrediting the efforts of the economically-conscious-left ("even if you abolish economic classes social classes will prevail, so don't bother") rather than as an honest intellectual inquiry. With this line: > Please note: for purposes of this discussion, the topics of race, ethnicity, gender, immigration status, and native language are all derails of the topic, which is class. The author seems more concerned with prevailing than with being correct.

JPKab 11y ago

Because of where I grew up (rural South and Appalachia), my native accent is something that I've learned to mask in all professional settings. It doesn't matter how immaculate my grammar is: in the profession of software engineering, southern accent = ignorant bigot who can't be trusted. People's biases, conscious or otherwise, are noticeable. The irony is that I practice "code switching", so basically my coworkers have no idea where I'm from until they ask me. They'll overhear me on the phone talking to my family, and notice that I speak in an entirely different manner. It's not a conscious thing on my part, but I sometimes feel very awkward about it. At times, I'm very upset by the fact that someone who grows up in a particular part of the country gets to speak in their native dialect at work without judgement, all because of stereotypes about intelligence and education, which essentially tie directly to the author's point about class.

secstate 11y ago
That's fascinating. I remember reading something a while ago about the loss of regional accents (there's a great "Downeast" accent up here in Maine that no one has anymore, except lobstermen). People like to blame mass media, but in reality it's mass communication and the stigma of having a thick Brooklyn, Southie, or Downeast accent that encourages folks to pretend they don't have one. On the flip side, there is some evolutionary reasons why humans make quick decision when encountering new people or places, and I would guess it would take generations to change our hardwiring to NOT make those assumptions unconsciously. Even more brutal, if that hardwiring changes, there are circumstances where we'd likely be in trouble but for our split second assumptions. Fascinating story on NPR last year about a cop in an evacuated Wal-mart looking for an active shooter. Came around the corner to see a white woman and for half a second wondered why a civilian was still in the store. Then she shot at him, he returned fire and barely escaped with his life. So there's arguments to be made for learning how to avoid those assumptions too :) Crazy, mixed up world we humans make for ourselves.
- tamana 11y ago
  And remember: if he had encountered a black civilian at that moment, the civilian would not have escaped with his life.

Retric 11y ago

Culture in many ways is an adaptation to local conditions magnified though feedback loops. Deserts promote different types of stories vs. grasslands vs. seashore. Now days location is less important, but wealth and poverty are also worlds apart. What IMO get's lost in these discussions is poor people can make rational choices that conflict with wealthy culture. "Sorry, broke" is a shield for many things making savings often money that you simply don't get to spend. What happens when your 50 and owe more money than you will make in the rest of your life?

RodericDay 11y ago

It's a bit disturbing to me how enthusiastically the SlaterStarCodex crowd latches onto this "fuck you, got mine" essay, gushing with praise and admiration about telling it like it is. The entire thing is a rationalization for the thinking illustrated in these quotes: > I feel the need for a disclaimer of sorts. I am writing about class and some of the injustices of classism, but I do not particularly pretend to position myself as an enemy of classism: I'm pretty classist. And by "pretty classist", I don't mean in the sense of "Everybody's a Little Bit Racist" or "gee, internalized misogyny is hard to totally eradicate". No, I mean closer to Segregation and PUAs. > My parents were born of blue collar families in blue collar communities and were of concerted agreement that their life goals were to flee that class and never have anything to do with it again. Elevating their – and their progeny's – social class was the family project. They enlisted my sister and I in this project, and were explicit, formal, and unapologetic about it. > I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense." The idea that "the Left" engages in "Orwellian double-think" with regards to class, is also pretty puzzling. > A thing that has been very frustrating to me is that most books and other discussions I have been able to find that really address that social classes are cultures have come out of the Right. Again this pattern: the Right, at least, admits the phenomenon exists, mostly so they can hate on people (also see "culture of poverty"); the Left engages in Orwellian doublethink, insisting the problem doesn't exist and shouldn't be spoken of. The Left promotes class-consciousness with the goal of abolishing unjust and arbitrary delineations, in its many dimensions (including the extremely well acknowledged ones such as vernacular). The idea that "the Left" has no notion that a poor Led Zeppelin fan can be higher class than the wife of a wealthy drug-dealer is insane. edit: reply to gjm (because I got flagged too much) The author - belittles their opposition (ie: "It is a common confusion – or intellectual dodge – to conflate social class with economic class."), - expresses veiled dismay that they can't "describe an ethnic, regional, or national culture with contempt, as broken or defective", - is against legal prejudices today, but against any measures that attempt to correct the damage caused by those legal prejudices in the past ("I'm on-board with the idea that all people have equal rights before the law, and entitled to a baseline level of respect as fellow humans, but I'm not sure how much further than that I go." - ie: the arrangement looks like this today, deal with it as if it was fair regardless of how we got here) - and concludes with "let's leave race out of it for the moment", echoing much of the talk by LessWrong-types "tired" of talk of sexism and racism. This piece is not just a humble description of how they see the world, it's very prescriptive. The overall impression I get is a righteous defense of the "fuck you, got mine" mentality, very inspired by Ayn Rand.

apalmer 11y ago

Article raises an interesting point... I think the divide is valid between social class and economic class, however i will say it is much more fluid in US than in most other countries both developed countries like UK and developing countries like say India. I think the reason is because to the US point of view the ultimate social goal is financial success. Next interesting point, I think a lot of the outrage with Donald Trump from within the republican party is he is projecting 'lower' class based signifiers and in effect turning power from the 'upper' class republicans to the 'lower' class republicans.

learc83 11y ago
George W. Bush played up the good ole boy from Texas image. Even though he was from a wealthy East Coast family and went to Yale. He was definitely trying to project an image of being from a lower social class, and he played to issues that lower social classes were more likely to support.
- brational 11y ago
  But the difference is that he still did whatever the wealthy republicans wanted too.

zeveb 11y ago

Very interesting thought, that colleges' purpose is to acculturate one into a certain culture. That would explain why collegiate athletics are so important: because people of a particular college's culture place importance on chasing after balls on grassy fields, it's important for colleges to acculturate their students to watching people chase after balls on grassy fields. I'm not saying that sarcastically — as much as I personally have never understood the point collegiate athletics, it makes a lot of sense in this context. I take issue with her desire to leave race out of the discussion. That's precisely the problem with race in America: race is a decent first-order approximation of class, with all the bad that entails. If we could address that head-on, if people didn't automatically assume that others of the same race are 'like them' and others of a different race are 'unlike them,' and not have those things be true, then racism would be a thing of the past — or, at least, no worse than the silliness one sees about redheads/gingers. The colour of one's skin has no more effect on one's worth as a human being than the colour of one's hair: the day that it's seen as no more important is the day racism is dead. But as long as race and class are conflated, that day won't come. > The ban on smoking in restaurants – which, let me be clear, I am wildly in favor of, being someone who can't patronize a business with cigarette smoking in it Can't? Given that tobacco smoke contains no allergens, methinks the mot juste would be 'won't.' > I empathize when social classes not mine find themselves on the short end of the stick, such as in the above account of smoking regulations, but that doesn't mean I'd do anything to change that outcome. Like, "Wow, it must suck to have your class' norms so disrespected by a change in the law like that. Welp, I'm off to buy a burger in this now refreshingly smoke-free burger joint, and discuss with my class-peers how else we can change public policy to make it more support my class' norms – even, if necessary, at your class' norms' expense." What was wrong with the previous policy, which meant that some places catered to the author's class and some places catered to other classes?

apalmer 11y ago
while your points are true, its kind of the whole point of the article is 'economic' (and of course race) are first-order approximations of 'social' class but they are NOT the same thing, only approximately overlapping. Pretty much the whole point of the article.

llull 11y ago

The truth of the essay is illustrated by studies that show lower social mobility over longer generational windows, i.e. ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's. The intangible cultural inheritance of social class is more lasting than fluctuations in material wealth.

morgante 11y ago
Do you have links to those studies? I've always found the reflexivity of class to be somewhat interesting. Economically, my family is in the bottom quartile of the country—but it never felt like that. They definitely raised me with "upper class" values and attitudes. (For example, there was never even a shadow of a doubt about whether I'd attend college.) My grandparents, on the other hand, were quite well off. As such, I've always felt more comfortable and fit in with people whose families have incomes vastly exceeding my family's.
erroneousfunk 11y ago
> "ones grandfather's income quintile is a better predictor of ones owns than ones fathers's" Wouldn't this actually meant that the average of one's parents, grandparent's, and great-grandparent's income quintiles is a better predictor than one's parents alone? (Unless these studies only looked at personal income of male relatives instead of household income?) The income of the grandfather is still a single point subject to fluctuations. Where are these studies?

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

Geography plays a huge role in determining social classes and the perceptions of them. It also influences spending habits.[1] In New York, for example, it has been shown that people across the income spectrum there will pay more than the national average for shoes and watches. New York is very wealthy and urban, so you are always walking and being seen in your shoes (and checking the time) and it confers a sense of class. The more people think about the quality of their footwear, the more they will be concerned with keeping up appearances. Even poor New Yorkers spend a higher part of their income on shoes than most poor Americans. Contrast this with, say, San Francisco. The shaggy-looking dude in jeans and a Hard Rock Cafe t-shirt could be a multimillionaire, you'd never know. But it is more likely than not that the given individual is physically fit. It's always bikini season in California, whereas New York's long and snowy winters allow for big meals and bigger coats. The more fit people you encounter, the more you will be concerned with your and other's fitness, because it is more readily on your mind. ("It's warm and sunny all year round and you don't even jog or bike? Get off your ass."). Consequently, the Bay Area sees a disproportionate amount of income spent on health clubs. [1] The New York Times had an excellent Op-Ed from a few years back, called: "What People Buy Where" http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-people-buy-where.html?referer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/opinion/sunday/what-peo...

tamana 11y ago
For shoes new yorkers walk a lot than others and need better shoes.
- nerfhammer 11y ago
  you also need different shoes for different weather conditions.
  - erikpukinskis 11y ago
    you also need a lot of shoes if you want to be fashionable, and New Yorkers are damn fashionable
11y ago

gragas 11y ago

>disproportionately impact the impecunious – the almost-certain forthcoming hike in T fares looms large in my anxieties right now – but I am a professional with an advanced degree and possession of the shibboleths of the professional class This actually hurt to read. It sounds like an excerpt from a Nabokov novel. (Don't get me wrong, Nabokov is a fantastic writer. But there is a time and place for writing like that, and this is not one of them.)

norea-armozel 11y ago

I think the question of social class applies to my situation quite well considering that despite the fact that I'm a programmer and have a degree in computer science I honestly don't fit in well with people who would be described as middle class. Working class still seems to apply to me despite my salary and job.

brational 11y ago
This is widely true in a lot of other engineering disciplines, especially those that are more hands-on. Anecdotally, in certain parts of the country this is why engineers (think mechanical, civil, etc) are viewed a large step below "true white collar management" types.

kbenson 11y ago

I haven't finished the article yet, but one thing that strikes me is the flamboyant use of vocabulary. Given the topic, I'm not sure whether it's just a peculiarity of the author, an attempt to tailor the reception of the piece with regard to specific audiences, a slight trolling or the reader, or a combination thereof. For example, early on we get "impecunious" and "shibboleths", followed up shortly afterwards with "booboo" (!). I find it distracting, to the point that I've lost the main thread of the article and I'm now wondering what the author was trying to accomplish with this style, if anything. I often find myself switching to a different form of conversing when debating here, but I would like to think that's because I'm trying to be precise, and so I switch to a more precise method of expression. Sometimes that makes it into my speech, for example when I'm trying to explain or diagnose a problem. It can be detrimental to communication if leaned on too heavily though.

henrikschroder 11y ago
Since it's an essay about class as performance, I thought it was obviously playing with the professional/academic performance that the piece is itself?
nkurz 11y ago
You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". Using "shibboleth" as a shibboleth is itself a shibboleth. She's declaring her bona fides (gratuitous Latin is also a shibboleth, especially if highlighted with italics) as a scholar by demonstrating her ability to use an obscure term correctly, and is being gracious to her audience by assuming their comprehension. Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of register. My background is somewhat similar to hers, although without the parental guidance. Perhaps as a result, my acculturation was less successful. I think this is a brilliant article, and (having read and enjoyed many of your other comments on this site) I encourage you start from the assumption that the author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece.
- kbenson 11y ago
  > You ask in another comment whether you are oblivious. Playfully, I respond "Yes, you are oblivious". A totally valid response, I was asking honestly, not sarcastically. :) The truth is, I'm not exposed to southern accents very often outside of media. I've lived and worked an hour north of SF most my life, and I think I'm more likely to identify a British or Australian accent in the area than I am a southern one. Unless they are hiding their accent, which I guess is entirely possible considering this thread. > Switching to "booboo" is intentional, showing consciousness of register. ... I encourage you start from the assumption that the author is fully conscious of the tone of this piece. I assumed the author was completely aware of the tone, I just wasn't sure how to interpret it myself in the short amount I had read. > I think this is a brilliant article Well, with that endorsement, I'll put extra effort into finishing it then. Not that I stopped for reasons pertaining to the content or delivery, I just ran out of time and all too often interesting articles are never finished due to that (the number tabs I have open in an obviously unsuccessful attempt to work around this behavior actually make for a comical view). Oh, and thanks for the compliment, It's (usually) nice to be noticed. :) After you've been following discussions on HN a while, certain names start to stick out when you see them, and I've definitely noticed yours (for positive reasons!)

nibs 11y ago

There has always been, and always will be, class in a society of people. Even among "progressive" societies like coastal North American cities, classism exists. It may be seperating people based on what level of educational attainment you have, or even how politically correct you act around peers (the more the better...?), but it will exist no matter what. Status was once (and perhaps still is) a useful metric for the level of contribution someone offered a community - doctors, lawyers and others like them get status because status is what a community could use in lieu of payment as a means of expressing gratitude for the useful service the person provides. We attribute status to athletes, musicians, companies and others for the same reason - they give us something we want. In order to feel like one belongs you must have acceptance from your community, be it a street gang or a country club. One of the most critical dimensions of the character of a person is how you treat someone that you do not have to treat well. So we should use our progressive monocultural aspirations for good (treat people fairly and as they want to be treated) instead of just talking about how much you want to save the world while you reject people who have a lesser degree than you.

henrikschroder 11y ago

Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. To me, the separation of economic class and social class is clearer than to the average American. But, the same rules of "invisibility" apply where I'm from. Whenever I've talked to my upper-middle class friends about what social class they belong to, they are completely clueless. They don't know they belong to it, they don't know others don't, and they completely subscribe to the "we're all just regular middle class" mentality. The friends I have from other classes, or who have also made class journeys, are much more in tune, they have no problems seeing class and classism. One thing that was very illuminating to me in this article was the notion of class as culture, and class as performance. > It is a common misconception that the primary obstacle to being in a much higher class is money to afford the things by which one performs that class. The limiting factor is not money, it is this: it is impossible to join a culture the ways of which you know nothing. You may come by money, but the ignorance of how to use it to perform that higher class will keep you out as adamantly as if there were a wall built around it. Holy crap. Yes. A thousand times yes.

arcanus 11y ago
> Being from Europe, I was also weirded out that almost all discussions of class in the US was about money. The subtle differences between the USA and Europe on this subject are quite interesting. Another one is that in the USA, being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative and instantly implies you are rich, spoiled and not likely to be a hard worker, if you work at all.
- henrikschroder 11y ago
  > being branded as 'upper class' is pejorative That's also fascinating, because in the US, wanting to be rich is seen as a very positive thing. Everyone is supposed to be living the American Dream and improving their lives, but reaching the end goal is a bad state? Hilarious. And where I'm from, wanting to be rich is seen as an ugly thing, the only socially acceptable ways to be rich is to win the lottery or be a sports champion. Then it's perfectly fine, but should you actually earn your money then that's automatically suspect and you're labelled a Bad Person. I have friends who are in the IT industry, making good money, and who are genuinely ashamed of how much money they make.

pchristensen 11y ago

If you're interested in this, the Cracked podcast discussed this article and related articles. http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-system/ http://www.cracked.com/podcast/americas-secret-caste-system/

stcredzero 11y ago

Thus social class and economic class are not identical, they are intersectional. They relate and they mediate one another, but they are not the same thing. And both of these are not identical to race in the US, but their perception is indeed still partially mediated by race.

pluma 11y ago
I find it frustrating that while everyone seems to be fine discussing privilege afforded by ethnicity, lack of disabilities or gender, the elephant in the room tends to get ignored: people like Zuckerberg or Gates weren't just privileged because they were born in the right skin (including the dangly bits) but also because they were born into the right families. If you are studying in an Ivy League tier university in the US and your parents know influential people in major companies, you are incredibly privileged. And as the article lays out, this actually reflects two forms of privilege: social class and economic class (of parents, close family, potential love interests and eventually yourself as an aggregate). The number of trans, non-male, non-white or non-heterosexual founders and leaders in major tech companies gets talked about every now and then. But I doubt any of those (proportional to the absolute distribution across the population) is significantly more concerning than the number of people from lower social and economical classes in the same roles. Of course these attributes can compound (e.g. "race" is often used as a handle for social class) but diversity needs to take all factors into account in order to fulfil its promise. Nepotism isn't just about skin colour and dangly bits, and class discrimination is far easier to hide behind "culture fit" than other forms of discrimination.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  According to the op, class discrimination is "culture fit."

jqm 11y ago

I have a friend I grew up with in Florida that for some reason developed an extremely thick southern accent (I didn't). He never finished college but started a machining company making parts for the food industry and has done very well making many times the money I have. He is a reasonably smart guy but most people wouldn't guess it talking to him. He sounds like he stepped directly out of the "Deliverance" movie. I didn't realize how bad it was until I saw him a year or two ago and even though he hasn't lived in the south in years, I swear his accent has gotten worse. Obviously this would be a huge negative in certain professions in certain locations. But it certainly hasn't prevented him from succeeding. In fact, my theory is that it has helped and this is why the accent has gotten stronger. His employees are mostly machinist/welder types. No way to say sissy to those guys more than speaking properly without accent. So maybe it give his some credibility with that crowd. He also does high dollar contracts for major companies. I bet more than a few times he has been sized up as "dumb hick we are going to take advantage of" and been severely underestimated in negations. Point being, in some times and places appearing a dumb hick might get one further than talking smart. Not in the software industry in California necessarily. There appearing smart might be more important than actually being smart:)

WalterBright 11y ago

I once went out to lunch at a modest restaurant with a couple friends, one from a wealthy eastern family and one from poverty. The former was dressed like a slob, the latter in a nice suit. I was fascinated how the former exuded class in how he comfortably dealt with the waiter and the wine list, etc., while the latter clearly was desperately trying to do that and failing. The difference was apparent even in how they walked and sat.

CPLX 11y ago
The Wire, which of course is an absolutely excellent longform meditation on class, has a couple really great scenes illustrating this exact thing: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xhhJVYK4nvQ http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WmGemNT7urY
- WalterBright 11y ago
  For other good (albeit fictional) accounts of social class, there's "Gone With The Wind's" treatment of Rhett Butler by southern society, and "The Blue Max's" treatment of Bruno Stachel who rises from being an innkeeper's son to a role formerly reserved only for the nobility. (Neither is about money, but manners and behavior.)
  - TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
    UK class is all about manners. And money. The upper classes are effortlessly sociable, polished, and polite, even if they think you're an idiot - unless you're the help, in which case they aren't. There are some subtle markers you can only learn either by being born into them or being told about them. E.g. when middle class are introduced they say "Pleased to meet you." When upper class people meet they say "How d'you do?" - and if someone says "Pleased to meet you, they immediately know they're not dealing with one of their own." I spent some time on the edges of the upper class scene, and the polish often hides drama and resentment - possibly because public school in the UK can sometimes seem to be a bizarre form of institutionalised child abuse. It's hard to imagine someone who's set to inherit a gigantic country mansion feeling that life has given them a raw deal, but I've seen it happen. There's also an almost complete absence of passionate creativity. I've seen working class kids (almost literally) kill to become musicians or artists. The upper classes sometimes drift into it, but the work is often derivative and shallow, and doesn't have the kick it has when someone has had to struggle.

dataker 11y ago

I live in South America and classes here are, similar to Europe, not really tied to your money. It's really funny: I grew up in a slum, but software now gives me as much money as politicians and senior executives of public companies. In my first paying contract overseas, I went to the most expensive restaurant in my town. Although I wore the same clothes and belonged to the same race, everybody was staring at me. The waitress would always reiterate the price of meals. I actually felt pretty good.

leoc 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcrZIK3gqbU ;)

TaylorGood 11y ago

Have a friend with tattoos everywhere; his recent remarks about a local yacht club had a layer of loath attached. It's as if he despises my 1) access and 2) ability to stroll around (no visible tattoos). He grew up inland, I didn't. His mom thinks money is bad, my family doesn't. The difference in the details make all the difference !

cblock811 11y ago

Yeah I got rid of my accent years ago when I realized that stigma existed. I also try to sound...less gay (idk how else to explain it) when I'm dealing with new people. Deeper voice, neutral accent, etc. It's pretty annoying to have to dodge random prejudices but that's life I guess.

Animats 11y ago

From the article: "Most people are very ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more than one degree above or below their own." Somewhere, there must be a "how to" guide for social class. There's a questionnaire, but other than some meaningless content on Quora, not much guidance.[1] Where there is guidance, it's about language usage.[2] The classic on this being, of course, "My Fair Lady"[1]. This is less of an issue since TV and movies imposed a standard linguistic dialect. The author likes Paul Fussell's "Class", which is an excellent read. It's quite funny. Social class is less social than it used to be, and more marketed. As a horse owner, I've seen this change since the 1980s. In the 1980s, it would have been considered tacky to have advertising at a horse show. Now, Rolex ads are all over the place. Polo is the classic upper class sport (Silicon Valley has three polo fields), but polo players are usually people who were football jocks in high school, but not college. Well into the 1980s, regular customers could sign their register receipts at Roberts of Woodside (a supermarket with an excellent deli) and be billed monthly. [1] http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Rules%20of%20Social%20Class.htm http://www.asanet.org/introtosociology/Documents/Hidden%20Ru... [2] http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010&context=pwpl http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1010... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhninL_G3Fg

kazinator 11y ago
If you're ignorant of the norms and values of the social classes more one degree below you, that's simply due to not watching television.
- clock_tower 11y ago
  And not watching television is a very upper-class thing to do...
- morgante 11y ago
  I didn't watch television as a child, but I do now and I'd say I'm still very ignorant of the norms/values of social classes 2 or more degrees below my own. Keep in mind that television itself has significant class segmentation. The vast majority of characters on shows I watch are from my class or present as such. On the occasion that I do see something from a lower class, it's quite jarring and I also have a lot of trouble differentiating race and class in such scenarios (>90% of the "lower class" characters I see are African-American).

BackPropagate 11y ago

"Contrariwise, a patient of mine – who is a white woman of almost my age – who is covered with tattoos, speaks with an Eastie accent, is over 200lbs, and wears spandex and bling and heavy make-up, gets screamed at by an ER nurse for med-seeking when she hadn't asked for medication at all, and just wanted an x-ray for an old bone-break she was frighted she had reinjured in a fall." Fatties shouldn't expect medical professionals to bend over backwards to help them. They should be eating less and not being a burden on the rest of us. Fact is, the "fat class" is really a class in America.

gscott 11y ago

The authors family sought to raise their blue collar class to a higher one. I have for years thought of a non-profit that might do this by sponsoring children into music instrument lessons, horseback riding, and language lessons. Things that most (say 75% of people) cannot afford. This could be done in group lessons to save on cost.

mdpopescu 11y ago
I don't think it's simply a "can't afford" issue. If the parents don't make a conscious, long-term effort (like in the author's case), you risk a huge blowback from them when the kids start acting "strangely". Nerds get bullied in school for being different than jocks; imagine having that happen with everyone you encounter, including your parents.

lemoncucumber 11y ago

LiveJournal is so low class, the author should've picked a nice middle-class platform like Medium to publish this </s>

sosuke 11y ago
For fun I wanted to see what it would look like http://i.imgur.com/IiLVfU5.png http://i.imgur.com/IiLVfU5.png There is often a bit of truth in a joke. I wonder if the "medium" would change the reception of a story.
nhf 11y ago
In all seriousness, I've only run into two groups that (in my personal experience) still use LJ: Eastern Europeans, especially Russians, and pop-culture related "creators" (which is the broad brush that I'm painting fan art, fanfiction, etc with). It's a really weird mix.
notlisted 11y ago
Funny, to me it was an indicator of her age (ie when she started using the Internet). I have the same reaction to articles on blogger. I associate Medium with minimalist know-it-all bearded fixie hipster programmers (under 35). :p Still better then the SV(u)btle peeps (but less exclusive, by invitation only peeps, let's keep it classy!).
- jholman 11y ago
  I agree with you (strongly about medium, though I disagree about blogger). Or, to put it in terms more related to the article... Medium is nouveau riche, LJ is authentic aristocracy. If you think Medium is "nice middle-class", it means you're lower-middle-class. PS: I can't tell if I'm kidding or not. PPS: what does it say about my class that I thought these post-scripts are a good idea?
  - notlisted 11y ago
    Correct insertion of the extra P tells me so much about you. This whole social class stuff is quite funny when you start thinking about it. I'm terribly judgmental it seems...

Spooky23 11y ago

I moved from NYC to the rural reaches of upstate New York when I was 11. My family and folks I hung out had a mixed of "Lunged Idland", Brooklyn and Irish accents. Nobody had any idea what I was saying for several months after moving, with good reason. The accent still pops out once in awhile, usually when I'm tired or agitated. Some folks find it grating or aggressive. I just tell them to screw off.

turar 11y ago

A couple of related posts that I found very interesting and are probably worth sharing here: A reddit discussion on bullshitting and class: http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generation_y_why_young_voters_are_backing_the/caqq8th?context=2 http://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h3j08/generatio... with a link to this piece: http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-school-days-the-building-of-upper-class-solidarity/ http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2013/06/my-public-s...

turar 11y ago
Just realized the second link is broken and can't edit the original comment. Fixed link: http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the-building-of-upper-class-solidarity/ http://bright-green.org/2013/06/25/my-public-school-days-the...

Tycho 11y ago

The telltale sign of classicism in modern America is how the upper middle classes continue to put up with inflated college tuition fees. They're basically paying to keep the lower classes out.

aandrieiev 11y ago

I'm wondering if using "IIII" instead of "IV" for the 4th chapter was intentional or it has to do with the social class of the author =)

MadManE 11y ago

I had an almost jarring occurrence of this happen when I graduated with my BSME. My first name is traditionally associated with old rednecks. I sent out a hundred or so resumes before I got any response at all - an offhand comment about duct tape engineering. For whatever reason, that clicked with me. So, I added my middle name to my resume and had a job within a week. I've been going by my middle name professionally ever since.

jiiam 11y ago

Interesting, but annoyingly condescending.