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I had some exposure to Greek startup scene and know most companies mentioned here. Business is doable if your company is registered outside Greece, and Greek br

I had some exposure to Greek startup scene and know most companies mentioned here. Business is doable if your company is registered outside Greece, and Greek branch is just a shell to pay salaries. There is talent shortage here. For unqualified office assistant you get hundred job applicants. But it is very hard to find senior developers. I did a few job interviews (senior java developer) and offers were comparable to Budapest. But cost of living is higher. Business wise it is a nightmare. Tax/business system is changing every a few months. New rules must be implemented within weeks... There are often strikes (its just like a weather forecast). Greek employers want endless paperwork of degrees and certificates... Dont underestimate this side of things, post soviet countries have real motivations to change, but Greece is just adding more paperwork. Bankruptcy is the only way Greece can be saved at this point. Troika wants to raise taxes indefinitely to the point of revolution, and Greek state has so much pension/social obligations it is unsustainable.

kbody 11y ago
Up until the last line I was with you. But those are separate things. Just like any organization it's all about the team/people. The government is clueless without a proper strategy and most of the political scene isn't bold or capable enough to do major state reforms. I envy Estonia and Cyprus, they both in a critical time, took bold decisions that both required great effort and persistence to accomplish their goals. Greece on the other hand keeps on choosing the short-term seemingly easy way that ends up -of course- being an illusion. I believe we had an opportunity to show that we want change, but we the Greek people keep on failing. I keep losing faith not at the politicians but on the will and maybe intelligence of the people and after so many years in misery, it's beyond tiring to see almost no progress and in some cases steps back. The populism and having a majority of weak politicians is killing this country.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  > "I envy Estonia and Cyprus, they both in a critical time, took bold decisions that both required great effort and persistence to accomplish their goals." I don't know about Estonia, but if I remember correctly Cyprus' solution was a 'bail in' (i.e. using the private savings of its citizens to bail out the banks). Couldn't they have found a better solution than that, like, for instance, guaranteeing the savings of their citizens with an asset freeze and letting the failing companies fail?
  - pjc50 11y ago
    private savings of its citizens Quite a lot of the people who had savings in Cyprus over the €100,000 uninsured threshold were not citizens, but foreigners parking their money in Cyprus as a tax haven. It's still a tax haven: http://qz.com/178114/what-russian-money-sloshing-back-to-cyprus-teaches-us-about-tax-havens/ http://qz.com/178114/what-russian-money-sloshing-back-to-cyp... (Not all of them though, some of it was business working capital!) Asset freeze would not have helped; the whole problem is that a bank with e.g. €1bn in deposits (liabilities) whose loan business collapses ends up with less than €1bn in assets. There is no way to 'pay all the depositors and let the company fail' other than injecting money from outside. In the case of Cyprus having domestic taxpayers pay for non-domestic non-taxpayers to be made whole would be .. unpopular.
  - kbody 11y ago
    I'm not saying it was painless. Citizens were affected and probably still are affected, my envy was about the decisiveness of their political parties, that at those grave times didn't resort to popularism to rise to power, but instead almost all the parties agreed and now are free from IMF et al. About the savings of their citizens, you're right, I would do that as well, and wonder why they didn't do it, like just "print" an IOU or something for the citizens that got the haircut up to some limit. On the other hand Greece went through everything but the traditional haircut of the savings. Continuously new increased and "temporary/emergency" taxes, enforced capital controls and we are way longer in crisis. All this time and sacrifices and still only two of the minor socialist parties (one of which wasn't even in the parliament) joined forces (probably for survival reasons and not for the "good" of the country). I personally have some hope which was reduced from the last elections' results. But the problem is the people that keep choosing to blame everyone else and take the seemingly easy way out. What do you do then? Pray for a Messiah starts to look like the more realistic option. /f
- guelo 11y ago
  As an outsider I was perplexed when the Greek people chose a generation of depression instead of leaving the Euro. If they had left the Euro they still had hope of building a proud independent country. My guess is that Greeks had so little faith in their leaders that they'd rather take the punishment from Europe. Now the country is ruined and young people have no option but to leave. It's sad.
  - kbody 11y ago
    The Greek people voted a party that was against the memorandums and the rough measures, they were saying Euro is not a single road. The people also voted that on the referendum, so if it was up to the people we would be out of the Euro, it's the government that did hold their word and agreed. I think Euro or Drachmas, with such weak leaders there was no hope for something better. But leaving Euro would destroy any healthy companies that deal with foreign countries among a lot of other downsides.
raverbashing 11y ago
What would be the ballpark of that offer that you said matched Budapests?
- StavrosK 11y ago
  I think it's around 2k EUR/mo after taxes/insurance/whatever, which is around 4.5k EUR/mo fully loaded.
amazon_not 11y ago
Just out of interest, why do you need a Greek branch? Why not just pay the salaries from, say, Germany? Genuine question, I don't have an answer either way, just happy to learn.
- StavrosK 11y ago
  I think that's because the health insurance of the employee is paid in the country the company resides in, so a German company can't pay your Greek health insurance (unless you pay for your own insurance, in which case they just give you the money, but few people can/do that).
- thr34280998 11y ago
  Because working for foreign company creates more administration for employees. http://www.taxlaw.gr/en/idika-themata/216-social-security-formalities-for-employees-working-in-greece-when-the-employer-is-not-established-in-greece http://www.taxlaw.gr/en/idika-themata/216-social-security-fo...
  - amazon_not 11y ago
    Fair enough. Still, wouldn't it be both cheaper and easier to pay the employees more to cover social security, etc. and have an assistant do their paperwork than establishing a subsidiary in Greece?

kbody 11y ago

Up until the last line I was with you. But those are separate things. Just like any organization it's all about the team/people. The government is clueless without a proper strategy and most of the political scene isn't bold or capable enough to do major state reforms. I envy Estonia and Cyprus, they both in a critical time, took bold decisions that both required great effort and persistence to accomplish their goals. Greece on the other hand keeps on choosing the short-term seemingly easy way that ends up -of course- being an illusion. I believe we had an opportunity to show that we want change, but we the Greek people keep on failing. I keep losing faith not at the politicians but on the will and maybe intelligence of the people and after so many years in misery, it's beyond tiring to see almost no progress and in some cases steps back. The populism and having a majority of weak politicians is killing this country.

ZenoArrow 11y ago
> "I envy Estonia and Cyprus, they both in a critical time, took bold decisions that both required great effort and persistence to accomplish their goals." I don't know about Estonia, but if I remember correctly Cyprus' solution was a 'bail in' (i.e. using the private savings of its citizens to bail out the banks). Couldn't they have found a better solution than that, like, for instance, guaranteeing the savings of their citizens with an asset freeze and letting the failing companies fail?
- pjc50 11y ago
  private savings of its citizens Quite a lot of the people who had savings in Cyprus over the €100,000 uninsured threshold were not citizens, but foreigners parking their money in Cyprus as a tax haven. It's still a tax haven: http://qz.com/178114/what-russian-money-sloshing-back-to-cyprus-teaches-us-about-tax-havens/ http://qz.com/178114/what-russian-money-sloshing-back-to-cyp... (Not all of them though, some of it was business working capital!) Asset freeze would not have helped; the whole problem is that a bank with e.g. €1bn in deposits (liabilities) whose loan business collapses ends up with less than €1bn in assets. There is no way to 'pay all the depositors and let the company fail' other than injecting money from outside. In the case of Cyprus having domestic taxpayers pay for non-domestic non-taxpayers to be made whole would be .. unpopular.
- kbody 11y ago
  I'm not saying it was painless. Citizens were affected and probably still are affected, my envy was about the decisiveness of their political parties, that at those grave times didn't resort to popularism to rise to power, but instead almost all the parties agreed and now are free from IMF et al. About the savings of their citizens, you're right, I would do that as well, and wonder why they didn't do it, like just "print" an IOU or something for the citizens that got the haircut up to some limit. On the other hand Greece went through everything but the traditional haircut of the savings. Continuously new increased and "temporary/emergency" taxes, enforced capital controls and we are way longer in crisis. All this time and sacrifices and still only two of the minor socialist parties (one of which wasn't even in the parliament) joined forces (probably for survival reasons and not for the "good" of the country). I personally have some hope which was reduced from the last elections' results. But the problem is the people that keep choosing to blame everyone else and take the seemingly easy way out. What do you do then? Pray for a Messiah starts to look like the more realistic option. /f
guelo 11y ago
As an outsider I was perplexed when the Greek people chose a generation of depression instead of leaving the Euro. If they had left the Euro they still had hope of building a proud independent country. My guess is that Greeks had so little faith in their leaders that they'd rather take the punishment from Europe. Now the country is ruined and young people have no option but to leave. It's sad.
- kbody 11y ago
  The Greek people voted a party that was against the memorandums and the rough measures, they were saying Euro is not a single road. The people also voted that on the referendum, so if it was up to the people we would be out of the Euro, it's the government that did hold their word and agreed. I think Euro or Drachmas, with such weak leaders there was no hope for something better. But leaving Euro would destroy any healthy companies that deal with foreign countries among a lot of other downsides.

raverbashing 11y ago

What would be the ballpark of that offer that you said matched Budapests?

StavrosK 11y ago
I think it's around 2k EUR/mo after taxes/insurance/whatever, which is around 4.5k EUR/mo fully loaded.

amazon_not 11y ago

Just out of interest, why do you need a Greek branch? Why not just pay the salaries from, say, Germany? Genuine question, I don't have an answer either way, just happy to learn.

StavrosK 11y ago
I think that's because the health insurance of the employee is paid in the country the company resides in, so a German company can't pay your Greek health insurance (unless you pay for your own insurance, in which case they just give you the money, but few people can/do that).
thr34280998 11y ago
Because working for foreign company creates more administration for employees. http://www.taxlaw.gr/en/idika-themata/216-social-security-formalities-for-employees-working-in-greece-when-the-employer-is-not-established-in-greece http://www.taxlaw.gr/en/idika-themata/216-social-security-fo...
- amazon_not 11y ago
  Fair enough. Still, wouldn't it be both cheaper and easier to pay the employees more to cover social security, etc. and have an assistant do their paperwork than establishing a subsidiary in Greece?