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Being committed for 1 year is very different from being committed for 4 to 10 years(as another commenter below pointed out). The "significant resources" amount

by ajju 17y ago

Being committed for 1 year is very different from being committed for 4 to 10 years(as another commenter below pointed out). The "significant resources" amount to around $4000 for an H1B if the company files the expedited visa and $2500 (IIRC) for the default route. This is significantly less than the monthly salary of a programmer in most places. For a green card, the expenses are roughly double but often shared by the company and the employee. So the scale here is very different. What's more, your sister is not going to be thrown out of the country if she leaves Crossfit before the year ends. I think it makes sense to have a pay-back agreement for legal expenses in the case of an H1B but not to have legal immigration status dependent on that specific job. Skilled employment based immigration should be based on the immigrant's level of skills, not tied to a specific job.

yummyfajitas 17y ago
First, I think you are greatly underestimating the cost of an H1B. It's more than just the application fee. For example, the company must create a job description so narrow that only the desired candidate can fit it. They must then advertise and otherwise attempt to recruit an American for that position, and a lawyer must make sure they tried hard enough. Once lawyers get involved, things get expensive. As for getting thrown out of the country, it's my understanding that someone on an H1B is in the country for the sole purpose of relieving a shortage of skilled labor. Once the job is gone, they have no reason to remain in the US. They can also leave their job at any time. In contrast, bonded labor can not leave their job until their debts are paid off. In short, I think you want the H1B system to be something that it isn't. The sole goal is to relieve a shortage of skilled labor. There is no reason we should make it easier for people to leverage an H1B into citizenship. Now, I certainly think we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants, subject to much greater scrutiny than we already have [1]. But that's completely separate from the matter of visas to provide temporary labor. [1] I think we do a terrible job of making sure immigrants are a good cultural fit for the US and assimilating them once they get here.
- ajju 17y ago
  Actually I have been on both sides of the table on an H-1B visa, so I am quite certain that I am not underestimating the cost of the H1B visa. The government fees are $2320 for a non-expedited application and $3320 for an expedited application. Lawyers usually charge $1000. Although this, obviously, will vary by firm and seniority of the lawyer in question. The narrow job description and advertisements are applicable only to the green card where the total cost would probably reach over $8000, but again it is often shared by the employee and the employer. The job description is a few hours of work by an immigration paralegal or lawyer and newspaper ads should not increase the cost by much more. I don't want the H1B system to be something it is not, the government has already muddled the intent of the system by allowing H1Bs to apply for greencards. In fact it is probably the only practical way of getting a green card as a skilled immigrant, but government chokes the supply of those at will, making it unpredictable. If the sole goal of the H1B is to relieve temporary shortage of labor, H1Bs should not be allowed to apply for green cards. In the end, I think we have arrived at the same conclusions: that we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants and establish a system independent of the H1B visa for it. I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. I was dreading putting the bonded labor comparison there, which is why I added the caveat. But a bonded laborer cannot leave their job until their debts are paid off, and an H1B with a greencard application pending cannot leave their job until they get a greencard (or risk losing whatever life/assets the have built up here). I see similarities there, although, obviously the two are not identical. It is easy to say that immigrants should not expect to build a life and live here permanently, just because they can apply for a green card. However, the current approach to immigration causes uncertainty which hurts both the country (because very skilled immigrants, given a choice, will not accept the uncertainty) and immigrants themselves (for obvious reasons).
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. My general feeling is that immigrants should be tolerant, hard working and individualist. The second generation should be integrated into mainstream America, rather than clustered into a ghetto. These are, IMO, the shared values of the US. A skill/work based system should weed out the lazy. There are basically 2 behaviors I'd like to prevent: 1.) Racism. If someone has a problem with their daughter marrying a black guy, they should stay home. We have enough racists, we don't need to import more. I'd measure this by intermarriage and cohabitation rates. I.e., if X Americans and X immigrants don't marry people of non-X descent very often, that suggests X's are racist. I'd give people from country X a big penalty on the point system. 2.) Strong family/social obligations. Basically, forcing people (particularly one's children) via social pressure to conform to your own preferences. No clue how to measure this.

by ajju 17y ago

yummyfajitas 17y ago

First, I think you are greatly underestimating the cost of an H1B. It's more than just the application fee. For example, the company must create a job description so narrow that only the desired candidate can fit it. They must then advertise and otherwise attempt to recruit an American for that position, and a lawyer must make sure they tried hard enough. Once lawyers get involved, things get expensive. As for getting thrown out of the country, it's my understanding that someone on an H1B is in the country for the sole purpose of relieving a shortage of skilled labor. Once the job is gone, they have no reason to remain in the US. They can also leave their job at any time. In contrast, bonded labor can not leave their job until their debts are paid off. In short, I think you want the H1B system to be something that it isn't. The sole goal is to relieve a shortage of skilled labor. There is no reason we should make it easier for people to leverage an H1B into citizenship. Now, I certainly think we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants, subject to much greater scrutiny than we already have [1]. But that's completely separate from the matter of visas to provide temporary labor. [1] I think we do a terrible job of making sure immigrants are a good cultural fit for the US and assimilating them once they get here.

ajju 17y ago
Actually I have been on both sides of the table on an H-1B visa, so I am quite certain that I am not underestimating the cost of the H1B visa. The government fees are $2320 for a non-expedited application and $3320 for an expedited application. Lawyers usually charge $1000. Although this, obviously, will vary by firm and seniority of the lawyer in question. The narrow job description and advertisements are applicable only to the green card where the total cost would probably reach over $8000, but again it is often shared by the employee and the employer. The job description is a few hours of work by an immigration paralegal or lawyer and newspaper ads should not increase the cost by much more. I don't want the H1B system to be something it is not, the government has already muddled the intent of the system by allowing H1Bs to apply for greencards. In fact it is probably the only practical way of getting a green card as a skilled immigrant, but government chokes the supply of those at will, making it unpredictable. If the sole goal of the H1B is to relieve temporary shortage of labor, H1Bs should not be allowed to apply for green cards. In the end, I think we have arrived at the same conclusions: that we should increase our immigration quota for skilled immigrants and establish a system independent of the H1B visa for it. I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. I was dreading putting the bonded labor comparison there, which is why I added the caveat. But a bonded laborer cannot leave their job until their debts are paid off, and an H1B with a greencard application pending cannot leave their job until they get a greencard (or risk losing whatever life/assets the have built up here). I see similarities there, although, obviously the two are not identical. It is easy to say that immigrants should not expect to build a life and live here permanently, just because they can apply for a green card. However, the current approach to immigration causes uncertainty which hurts both the country (because very skilled immigrants, given a choice, will not accept the uncertainty) and immigrants themselves (for obvious reasons).
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  I don't know how you intend to test for cultural fit, but I am open to listening to ideas there. My general feeling is that immigrants should be tolerant, hard working and individualist. The second generation should be integrated into mainstream America, rather than clustered into a ghetto. These are, IMO, the shared values of the US. A skill/work based system should weed out the lazy. There are basically 2 behaviors I'd like to prevent: 1.) Racism. If someone has a problem with their daughter marrying a black guy, they should stay home. We have enough racists, we don't need to import more. I'd measure this by intermarriage and cohabitation rates. I.e., if X Americans and X immigrants don't marry people of non-X descent very often, that suggests X's are racist. I'd give people from country X a big penalty on the point system. 2.) Strong family/social obligations. Basically, forcing people (particularly one's children) via social pressure to conform to your own preferences. No clue how to measure this.