4 ms·

You could just as well say the Ford Mustang solves the range anxiety problem by relying on gas. Making a gas-powered vehicle isn't solving range anxiety, becaus

by chc 11y ago

You could just as well say the Ford Mustang solves the range anxiety problem by relying on gas. Making a gas-powered vehicle isn't solving range anxiety, because the range anxiety problem relates to electric vehicles. The Volt is a hybrid, like the Prius. Hybrids never had range anxiety associated with them.

dragontamer 11y ago
The Volt is a hybrid that is in 100% electric mode for the vast, vast majority of the time. There's a big difference between an electric-assist Prius and an electric-first plus Gasoline Generator Volt. The Prius is always burning gasoline, while the Volt only starts burning gas when it runs low on charge. There's a newer model Prius (ie: Prius Prime) that has 20-miles of pure electric range, but that's not even enough to get me from home to work and back. In practice, I'd have to keep the Prius in gasoline / hybrid mode even for a daily commute. In contrast, the Volt's 40-mile pure electric range is a big deal changer. Again, the Volt is a pure electric vehicle with a generator. The Prius is a hybrid engine (and the Prius Prime is a hybrid engine that can shut off the gasoline feed, but is still a hybrid engine nonetheless). I'd say the standard Prius is closer to the Malibu Hybrid, or other hybrids. But the plug-in pure electric mode of the Volt (and the recent Prius Prime) almost demands a new category.
- chc 11y ago
  It's pretty strange to go from casually dismissing Tesla's 280-mile range as being too short in your last post, to calling the Volt's 40-mile range "a big deal changer" here. It's only in 100% electric mode the "vast, vast majority of the time" if you hardly drive at all. A 40-mile range is positively anemic, not even enough for my average commute. That's much closer to the Prius' 20-mile range than it is to the Nissan Leaf's 80-mile range, which in turn is drastically shorter than the Tesla Model S's 280-mile range.
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    The Leaf doesn't have an alternative source of energy. Run out of the 80-mile range on the Leaf, and you're stranded. Call up a tow-truck because you're stuck. The Tesla Model S 280 miles requires a 30-minute stop when you go cross country. In contrast, the Volt has a 400-mile electric generator on top of a 40-mile pure electric battery.
    - chc 11y ago
      Sure, and my friend's Mustang can also go a pretty long distance on gas, as can every other gas-burning car. That's my point — the Volt should not be grouped in with cars like the Model S or the Bolt, because it is not the same thing — heck, that's why Chevy is making the Bolt when they already have the Volt, because they are different. If you like the Volt, that's fine, but you're burning gasoline just like an ICE car if you ever drive more than 40 miles.
      - dragontamer 11y ago
        And is there anything wrong with a small battery that's enough (or nearly enough) for the daily commute, and a gas engine to take you where you can't go? As stated: the other "electric-mode / gas assist" vehicle is the Prius Prime, which only has 20-mile range. So the Volt is the highest-capacity pure-electric mode vehicle with an on board generator. From the "Compare with Model 3", these are both electric vehicles that cost somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000 that overall have more than 300-mile range. One uses the common gas station to get there (40-mile all-electric + 400 mile gas generator), the other uses much larger battery packs and is therefore stuck on the supercharger network. I mean, at the end of the day, they're basically cars. So... yeah. Cars should be compared against each other. There's a ton of options, and the Model 3 is finally at a price range where it can be reasonably compared against these options. So lets compare. Amirite?
        chc 11y ago
        > And is there anything wrong with a small battery that's enough (or nearly enough) for the daily commute, and a gas engine to take you where you can't go? Wrong? No. But it's not the same thing as a large battery that can do both. You could drive a Tesla from the Mexican border to Disneyland and back without needing to charge. That is not bad range. The Volt could do that too, but it would spend about 80% of the trip burning gas. If you care about that, it's worse. If you don't care, then I guess you could say they're equivalent, but I don't quite understand why you're bothering with EVs in that case. Basically, I don't have anything against people driving Volts. I don't drive an EV either — I have an old Prius. I am just annoyed by the rhetorical games people are playing here to draw false equivalences that favor of their favorite car. When it supports the Volt, you'll compare cars in hyper-specific categories like "highest-capacity pure-electric mode vehicle with an on board generator." But when I suggest that there's a substantive difference between a pure electric car and a car whose rated range comes 90% from gasoline and that somebody might care about that difference, that's unreasonable because "at the end of the day, they're basically cars." Nowhere in this thread have I criticized anyone for owning a Volt. I've just said there's a difference between a car with a 16 kWh battery and a car with a 90 kWh battery, and equating them with each other makes about as much sense as equating them with a Mustang (which costs about the same and can also drive about the same distance between fill-ups).
sremani 11y ago
You are oversimplifying things, PHEVs are not for every one, but to say they are not different from serial hybrids and regular ICE is being dramatically dishonest. There is a role for plugin hybrids for people who have structured needs. If your commute and daily chores are fixed and do not have much variations and they fit within the AER(all electric range), PHEVs give you the best bang for the buck. None of us have to defend a Car with excellent track record and is available against a not ready for pre-prod vehicle with evolving specs and likely delivered 3 years from now. You are missing the point and missing it intentionally.
- chc 11y ago
  No, I'm not. I just feel it's disingenuous to refer to a gas-burning car as an electric vehicle comparable a Tesla or a Leaf or a Bolt. If we want to treat the Volt as an EV, we should talk about it as only being able to go 40 miles. On the other hand, if we want to talk about the Volt having a 400-mile range, we are talking about burning gas most of the time. I'm not saying you need to defend your car. I'm glad you enjoy it. My friend with a Mustang also enjoys her car, but she doesn't try to tell people it's the same thing as a Tesla. That's all I'm saying — a gas-powered car that can go short distances on battery power might be the best bang for your buck, but it just isn't the same thing as a long-range EV.
  - sremani 11y ago
    @chc, having rolled over 20,000 miles on Electric motor, I get to say it is Electric. It is classified PHEV. Splitting semantics is useless, I drive 30+ electric miles daily on it. It burns gas but rarely. If you have interest, go check voltstats.net, there is every kind of use case there. More than 80% of my miles are Electric. EV enthusiasts from times unknown consider PHEV as a subcategory of EV, but different from BEV. But BEVs and PHEVs are compared against each other. This is not the first time and this will not be the last time.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

by chc 11y ago

dragontamer 11y ago

The Volt is a hybrid that is in 100% electric mode for the vast, vast majority of the time. There's a big difference between an electric-assist Prius and an electric-first plus Gasoline Generator Volt. The Prius is always burning gasoline, while the Volt only starts burning gas when it runs low on charge. There's a newer model Prius (ie: Prius Prime) that has 20-miles of pure electric range, but that's not even enough to get me from home to work and back. In practice, I'd have to keep the Prius in gasoline / hybrid mode even for a daily commute. In contrast, the Volt's 40-mile pure electric range is a big deal changer. Again, the Volt is a pure electric vehicle with a generator. The Prius is a hybrid engine (and the Prius Prime is a hybrid engine that can shut off the gasoline feed, but is still a hybrid engine nonetheless). I'd say the standard Prius is closer to the Malibu Hybrid, or other hybrids. But the plug-in pure electric mode of the Volt (and the recent Prius Prime) almost demands a new category.

chc 11y ago
It's pretty strange to go from casually dismissing Tesla's 280-mile range as being too short in your last post, to calling the Volt's 40-mile range "a big deal changer" here. It's only in 100% electric mode the "vast, vast majority of the time" if you hardly drive at all. A 40-mile range is positively anemic, not even enough for my average commute. That's much closer to the Prius' 20-mile range than it is to the Nissan Leaf's 80-mile range, which in turn is drastically shorter than the Tesla Model S's 280-mile range.
- dragontamer 11y ago
  The Leaf doesn't have an alternative source of energy. Run out of the 80-mile range on the Leaf, and you're stranded. Call up a tow-truck because you're stuck. The Tesla Model S 280 miles requires a 30-minute stop when you go cross country. In contrast, the Volt has a 400-mile electric generator on top of a 40-mile pure electric battery.
  - chc 11y ago
    Sure, and my friend's Mustang can also go a pretty long distance on gas, as can every other gas-burning car. That's my point — the Volt should not be grouped in with cars like the Model S or the Bolt, because it is not the same thing — heck, that's why Chevy is making the Bolt when they already have the Volt, because they are different. If you like the Volt, that's fine, but you're burning gasoline just like an ICE car if you ever drive more than 40 miles.
    - dragontamer 11y ago
      And is there anything wrong with a small battery that's enough (or nearly enough) for the daily commute, and a gas engine to take you where you can't go? As stated: the other "electric-mode / gas assist" vehicle is the Prius Prime, which only has 20-mile range. So the Volt is the highest-capacity pure-electric mode vehicle with an on board generator. From the "Compare with Model 3", these are both electric vehicles that cost somewhere between $30,000 and $40,000 that overall have more than 300-mile range. One uses the common gas station to get there (40-mile all-electric + 400 mile gas generator), the other uses much larger battery packs and is therefore stuck on the supercharger network. I mean, at the end of the day, they're basically cars. So... yeah. Cars should be compared against each other. There's a ton of options, and the Model 3 is finally at a price range where it can be reasonably compared against these options. So lets compare. Amirite?
      - chc 11y ago
        > And is there anything wrong with a small battery that's enough (or nearly enough) for the daily commute, and a gas engine to take you where you can't go? Wrong? No. But it's not the same thing as a large battery that can do both. You could drive a Tesla from the Mexican border to Disneyland and back without needing to charge. That is not bad range. The Volt could do that too, but it would spend about 80% of the trip burning gas. If you care about that, it's worse. If you don't care, then I guess you could say they're equivalent, but I don't quite understand why you're bothering with EVs in that case. Basically, I don't have anything against people driving Volts. I don't drive an EV either — I have an old Prius. I am just annoyed by the rhetorical games people are playing here to draw false equivalences that favor of their favorite car. When it supports the Volt, you'll compare cars in hyper-specific categories like "highest-capacity pure-electric mode vehicle with an on board generator." But when I suggest that there's a substantive difference between a pure electric car and a car whose rated range comes 90% from gasoline and that somebody might care about that difference, that's unreasonable because "at the end of the day, they're basically cars." Nowhere in this thread have I criticized anyone for owning a Volt. I've just said there's a difference between a car with a 16 kWh battery and a car with a 90 kWh battery, and equating them with each other makes about as much sense as equating them with a Mustang (which costs about the same and can also drive about the same distance between fill-ups).

sremani 11y ago

You are oversimplifying things, PHEVs are not for every one, but to say they are not different from serial hybrids and regular ICE is being dramatically dishonest. There is a role for plugin hybrids for people who have structured needs. If your commute and daily chores are fixed and do not have much variations and they fit within the AER(all electric range), PHEVs give you the best bang for the buck. None of us have to defend a Car with excellent track record and is available against a not ready for pre-prod vehicle with evolving specs and likely delivered 3 years from now. You are missing the point and missing it intentionally.

chc 11y ago
No, I'm not. I just feel it's disingenuous to refer to a gas-burning car as an electric vehicle comparable a Tesla or a Leaf or a Bolt. If we want to treat the Volt as an EV, we should talk about it as only being able to go 40 miles. On the other hand, if we want to talk about the Volt having a 400-mile range, we are talking about burning gas most of the time. I'm not saying you need to defend your car. I'm glad you enjoy it. My friend with a Mustang also enjoys her car, but she doesn't try to tell people it's the same thing as a Tesla. That's all I'm saying — a gas-powered car that can go short distances on battery power might be the best bang for your buck, but it just isn't the same thing as a long-range EV.
- sremani 11y ago
  @chc, having rolled over 20,000 miles on Electric motor, I get to say it is Electric. It is classified PHEV. Splitting semantics is useless, I drive 30+ electric miles daily on it. It burns gas but rarely. If you have interest, go check voltstats.net, there is every kind of use case there. More than 80% of my miles are Electric. EV enthusiasts from times unknown consider PHEV as a subcategory of EV, but different from BEV. But BEVs and PHEVs are compared against each other. This is not the first time and this will not be the last time.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]