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I agree with the above, but I think there's also a more general Scandinavian/Swiss/German ethic that strongly values playing by the rules. Many citizens in thes

by glup 11y ago

I agree with the above, but I think there's also a more general Scandinavian/Swiss/German ethic that strongly values playing by the rules. Many citizens in these countries have a very different view of government than most do in the US: if collective adherence to rules results in better collective outcomes, and you if you value collective outcomes (perhaps because they are relatively culturally, ethnically, and socioeconomically homogenous populations), then regulation isn't a thing to find a way around for personal benefit. I think the above sentiment gets further reified as it becomes pare of the national identity: corruption scandals are for tropical dictators, not well-off postindustrial democracies. this varies by region in the US, obviously. I suspect that the frequency of Pittsburgh lefts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_left) is a pretty decent proxy for valuing system-optimal outcomes

cfallin 11y ago
It's fascinating to me that you mention Pittsburgh lefts as a sign of altruism / global-outcome-optimization. I currently live in Pittsburgh and... let's just say that I would not hold the average driver up as a model of selflessness. I think it's more that we've reached a local equilibrium: new drivers learn quickly to wait when a light turns green, as a matter of avoiding accidents, and also to take advantage of that pause when turning left, as a matter of not angering everyone behind them. It's difficult to change the equilibrium as long as you interact with others following the current system. (It's entirely possible that one could view this as emergent-behavior-converging-on-altruism without anyone consciously being altruistic. I'm just saying that anecdotally, it doesn't seem to derive directly from conscious altruistic values.)
- macintux 11y ago
  I witnessed a car in downtown Indianapolis pull that stunt. Of course, the driver accelerated straight into a pedestrian, who was less than enthused.
- kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
  At least in North Jersey, the persistent problem of making left turns does lead to more altruistic behavior. Many people will yield unnecessarily to drivers and bicyclists who are stuck waiting to turn. It is still aggravating when a signalized intersection lacks a left turn phase, "just because".

by glup 11y ago

cfallin 11y ago

It's fascinating to me that you mention Pittsburgh lefts as a sign of altruism / global-outcome-optimization. I currently live in Pittsburgh and... let's just say that I would not hold the average driver up as a model of selflessness. I think it's more that we've reached a local equilibrium: new drivers learn quickly to wait when a light turns green, as a matter of avoiding accidents, and also to take advantage of that pause when turning left, as a matter of not angering everyone behind them. It's difficult to change the equilibrium as long as you interact with others following the current system. (It's entirely possible that one could view this as emergent-behavior-converging-on-altruism without anyone consciously being altruistic. I'm just saying that anecdotally, it doesn't seem to derive directly from conscious altruistic values.)

macintux 11y ago
I witnessed a car in downtown Indianapolis pull that stunt. Of course, the driver accelerated straight into a pedestrian, who was less than enthused.
kevin_thibedeau 11y ago
At least in North Jersey, the persistent problem of making left turns does lead to more altruistic behavior. Many people will yield unnecessarily to drivers and bicyclists who are stuck waiting to turn. It is still aggravating when a signalized intersection lacks a left turn phase, "just because".