6 ms·

Apple and WebRTC need each other

54 points by cpncrunch 11y ago

ClippiusMaximus 11y ago
The way web browser standards work, when browser-makers fail to support features big enough for polyfills to not make sense, websites start telling their users to switch browsers. In this case, Facebook is telling Safari users to switch to Chrome or Firefox to be able to use video calls within Messenger. This is a good incentive when the technologies in question are good, but it creates a complexity ratchet: once features like this are added to the set of things browsers are expected to support, they can never be removed. WebRTC seems like a decent standard and fills a need, but I'm not sure how I feel about this ratchet dynamic.
chatmasta 11y ago
Maybe Apple is happy protecting their customers from arbitrary third parties who want to map their internal networks via webrtc. There are plenty of problems with webrtc, especially from a security perspective, and the benefits do not necessarily outweigh the costs. If a developer wants to build "webrtc-like" functionality on the apple platform, he can build an app using the many networking libraries available in iOS.
- lern_too_spel 11y ago
  Just like an iOS app, a browser WebRTC app won't leak internal network information without a user's permission, and if you really want to, you can force WebRTC traffic to go through your VPN as well and not leak anything. There's really no need to be an Apple apologist about this — their job listings show that a fixed WebKit is on the way.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Permission needed? Hit https://www.browserleaks.com/webrtc https://www.browserleaks.com/webrtc and see ;)
    - lern_too_spel 11y ago
      You're right. Then again, an iOS app doesn't need to request permission to get that data either. Both need permission to access the camera.
joshontheweb 11y ago
Apple please, please add WebRTC support to Safari. I have a business that relies on WebRTC and not a day goes by where customers don't ask me if it will work on iOS devices. I have to explain the situation all the time. It is expecially hard for clients to understand since apple allows other browsers in the iOS store but they are just wrappers around Safari and have the same limitations.
- zanny 11y ago
  You can use OpenWebRTC on iOS to provide support there.
  - jallmann 11y ago
    OpenWebRTC (by Ericsson) has a number of LGPL dependencies, and the way apps are packaged on iOS (eg, totally locked down) makes it difficult to completely follow through on the requirements of the LGPL, from a technical perspective. I'm not sure if iOS dynamic linking makes this easier? That's without getting into the question of whether the LGPL is legally compatible with the App Store TOS. While the LGPL's use/redistribution requirements aren't as stringent as the GPL's, I'm not qualified to make that analysis, and IIRC it hasn't been tested anywhere.
    - pthatcherg 11y ago
      The WebRTC implementation found at webrtc.org, which is used by Chrome, can also be used by mobile apps, including iOS. It's BSD licensed and used by many mobile apps. (I work on the WebRTC team)
      - zanny 11y ago
        Is there a way to reasonably compile it out as its own so? I looked into it last year and it seemed you could not build Chromium's webrtc independently at all. Mozilla uses it by literally cloning and building Chromium trunk and taking the so out of it.
  - 11y ago
MaysonL 11y ago
What's the bandwidth usage of WebRTC compared to Facetime? Facetime seems to be substantially better than Facebook Messenger or Skype. [0] [0] http://tech.kateva.org/2016/03/bandwidth-use-over-5-min-video-call.html http://tech.kateva.org/2016/03/bandwidth-use-over-5-min-vide...
- nextos 11y ago
  Last time I tried on a Firefox videochat with a Chrome machine, it was substantially higher than on Google Hangouts or plain old Google Talk. I tried to tweak Firefox internal options, without much luck.
alwillis 11y ago
Relax everyone—WebRTC is in on WebKit's to-do list: https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc.
- paulddraper 11y ago
  Pweh... You had me worried there. I thought it would languish for years after the spec had been accepted and other major vendors had implemented it.
  - alwillis 11y ago
    WebRTC is not only on the to-do list; it’s listed as "In Development": https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc
  - fenesiistvan 11y ago
    There is a webphone library from mizutech which offers webrtc whenever possible with failback to others when webrtc is not available (native plugin/flash/java): https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/WebPhone.aspx https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/WebPhone.aspx

54 points by cpncrunch 11y ago

The way web browser standards work, when browser-makers fail to support features big enough for polyfills to not make sense, websites start telling their users to switch browsers. In this case, Facebook is telling Safari users to switch to Chrome or Firefox to be able to use video calls within Messenger. This is a good incentive when the technologies in question are good, but it creates a complexity ratchet: once features like this are added to the set of things browsers are expected to support, they can never be removed. WebRTC seems like a decent standard and fills a need, but I'm not sure how I feel about this ratchet dynamic.

chatmasta 11y ago

Maybe Apple is happy protecting their customers from arbitrary third parties who want to map their internal networks via webrtc. There are plenty of problems with webrtc, especially from a security perspective, and the benefits do not necessarily outweigh the costs. If a developer wants to build "webrtc-like" functionality on the apple platform, he can build an app using the many networking libraries available in iOS.

lern_too_spel 11y ago
Just like an iOS app, a browser WebRTC app won't leak internal network information without a user's permission, and if you really want to, you can force WebRTC traffic to go through your VPN as well and not leak anything. There's really no need to be an Apple apologist about this — their job listings show that a fixed WebKit is on the way.
- mirimir 11y ago
  Permission needed? Hit https://www.browserleaks.com/webrtc https://www.browserleaks.com/webrtc and see ;)
  - lern_too_spel 11y ago
    You're right. Then again, an iOS app doesn't need to request permission to get that data either. Both need permission to access the camera.

joshontheweb 11y ago

Apple please, please add WebRTC support to Safari. I have a business that relies on WebRTC and not a day goes by where customers don't ask me if it will work on iOS devices. I have to explain the situation all the time. It is expecially hard for clients to understand since apple allows other browsers in the iOS store but they are just wrappers around Safari and have the same limitations.

zanny 11y ago
You can use OpenWebRTC on iOS to provide support there.
- jallmann 11y ago
  OpenWebRTC (by Ericsson) has a number of LGPL dependencies, and the way apps are packaged on iOS (eg, totally locked down) makes it difficult to completely follow through on the requirements of the LGPL, from a technical perspective. I'm not sure if iOS dynamic linking makes this easier? That's without getting into the question of whether the LGPL is legally compatible with the App Store TOS. While the LGPL's use/redistribution requirements aren't as stringent as the GPL's, I'm not qualified to make that analysis, and IIRC it hasn't been tested anywhere.
  - pthatcherg 11y ago
    The WebRTC implementation found at webrtc.org, which is used by Chrome, can also be used by mobile apps, including iOS. It's BSD licensed and used by many mobile apps. (I work on the WebRTC team)
    - zanny 11y ago
      Is there a way to reasonably compile it out as its own so? I looked into it last year and it seemed you could not build Chromium's webrtc independently at all. Mozilla uses it by literally cloning and building Chromium trunk and taking the so out of it.
- 11y ago

MaysonL 11y ago

What's the bandwidth usage of WebRTC compared to Facetime? Facetime seems to be substantially better than Facebook Messenger or Skype. [0] [0] http://tech.kateva.org/2016/03/bandwidth-use-over-5-min-video-call.html http://tech.kateva.org/2016/03/bandwidth-use-over-5-min-vide...

nextos 11y ago
Last time I tried on a Firefox videochat with a Chrome machine, it was substantially higher than on Google Hangouts or plain old Google Talk. I tried to tweak Firefox internal options, without much luck.

alwillis 11y ago

Relax everyone—WebRTC is in on WebKit's to-do list: https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc.

paulddraper 11y ago
Pweh... You had me worried there. I thought it would languish for years after the spec had been accepted and other major vendors had implemented it.
- alwillis 11y ago
  WebRTC is not only on the to-do list; it’s listed as "In Development": https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc https://webkit.org/status/#specification-webrtc
- fenesiistvan 11y ago
  There is a webphone library from mizutech which offers webrtc whenever possible with failback to others when webrtc is not available (native plugin/flash/java): https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/WebPhone.aspx https://www.mizu-voip.com/Software/WebPhone.aspx