4 ms·

When I purchased my last car in 2014, the order from mom was safety above all else. It had to have 5 stars in the 3 major categories. Dad had to give up perfor

When I purchased my last car in 2014, the order from mom was safety above all else. It had to have 5 stars in the 3 major categories. Dad had to give up performance. The car is jumpy, very loud and sluggish when accelerating 50-60 mph and the stereo is just bad. Tesla has satisfied both mom and dad by achieving both the safest and highest performance car ever mass produced, and, the total cost of ownership, factoring in depreciation, fuel, maintenance, insurance, is 1/2 an equivalently priced gasoline car over 10 years. That is why they have >300,000 pre-orders for the Model 3. Environmentally friendly, never have to smell gasoline again, drive in the car pool lanes, these are all icing on the cake.

dragontamer 11y ago
> It had to have 5 stars in the 3 major categories. Every vehicle I care about seems to have 5 stars in all categories. Safety of modern vehicles is exceptionally better than even just 10 years ago. You can achieve 5-stars in the original three categories with a $15k Honda Fit (Moderate front, side, and roof) http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/honda/fit-4-door-wagon/2015 http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/honda/fit-4-door-... > highest performance car ever mass produced Take a look at Leguna Seca lap times. Model S isn't doing as well as "high performance" cars. EDIT: Focus on the 1:48 laptime, the best one. It looks like it was a casual race for the most part. The 1:48 time however is a record not only for Tesla Model S, but for electric vehicles in general and should be taken as the "serious" indicator of the Model S's overall performance. https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-laguna-seca-lap-times https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-laguna-s... 5-stars in every safety category with performance and cheap is like... Subaru WRX. Fords are a bit easier to maintain though, so I'd go with Ford Focus ST or Focus RS (and switch out the tires, because stock tires on that suck apparently)
- LeonM 11y ago
  > Take a look at Leguna Seca lap times. Model S isn't doing very well. It all depends on how you like to 'measure' performance. The model S dominates when it comes to acceleration, pedal response and road (!= track) handling due to the low center of gravity. However, the S does very poor on a circuit because the motor/inverter tends to get hot and the software will reduce the maximum output power accordingly. You have to keep in minds that the model S is a 4 door, 2 trunk luxury sedan, not a race car.
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    > The model S dominates when it comes to acceleration There are multiple Model S here. The P85D which "dominates" acceleration has a curb weight of 5000lbs and likely handles like a boat. (The typical F150 truck actually weighs less than the Model S P85D). The older, more typical Model S, have Zero-to-Sixty scores in the 5-seconds to 6-seconds range, which is easily bested by the Subaru WRX STI. The Model S probably wins on rolling-start 5-to-sixty, as the ICE engines won't be able to rev-high and drop the clutch. Only Model S P85D "dominates" in acceleration, and that car comes with its own compromises. > road (!= track) handling due to the low center of gravity Model S measures .87g for road holding according to Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s), while the other cars I was talking about are all easily above .9+g. I'm unsure which model it is, I can only assume that's a more typical Model S as opposed to the heavier-than-a-Toyota-Sienna swagger-wagon P85D. Electric vehicles are heavy, and that negatively plays into its performance characteristics. > You have to keep in minds that the model S is a 4 door, 2 trunk luxury sedan, not a race car. Indeed. But if you want to step into the arena of "high performance", what better comparison is there than a standardized track? As for the apples-to-apples comparison, try 1:40 for the Cadillac CTS-V Sedan on the Leguna Seca, while 1:48 seems to be the best time for the Model S. Luxury sports sedan vs Luxury sports sedan, both are $85,000+ large cars claiming awesome performance after all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TcCuzaRFIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TcCuzaRFIw
- 11thEarlOfMar 11y ago
  We wound up with a Subaru Legacy. The performance that matters to me personally is getting off the dime and passing on the highway. Too many tentative drivers in California these days... I don't drive on race tracks, though I am sure that would be a blast.
- arprocter 11y ago
  Those lap times are all over the place - a Fiat 500E is in the mix with the Model S? Makes me suspect these aren't professional drivers
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    The 1:48 Lap time was a record for electric vehicles and the Model S in general. Focus on that time, and notice how much faster actual "performance" cars are than that. FastestLaps.com has the P85D (aka: Ludicrous mode) explicitly in its Autozeitung test track database in case you want another data-point. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track
    - arprocter 11y ago
      If what others are saying about overheating is correct it's surprising it happens so soon, as Laguna is only a couple of miles. Then again, the car is probably configured more to cruise at a constant speed instead of hammering around a circuit with lots of violent speed changes
- rconti 11y ago
  Yeah, but the WRX is a huge penalty box compared to the Model S. In real-world performance, the S is going to outrun the WRX. You cite a 5000lb curb weight and it 'probably' handles like a boat; I've driven 4500lb P85s that handle exceedingly well. Again, will a WRX beat it around an autocross course? Maybe. But instant torque and no gearchanges will win out in the real world. I don't know why you think the RS has crappy tires; it comes with PSS stock, which is what I put on my Golf R. But then again, the RS isn't even out yet.
  - dragontamer 11y ago
    Rumor is that Ford is giving the RS all-season tires as stock, but I'm having difficulty finding that story. I seem to see a winter-tire option, so maybe the rumor I read is wrong. > I've driven 4500lb P85s that handle exceedingly well Numbers just don't match your claim. I realize the low-center of gravity can give you confidence on a corner, but the best skidpad numbers I'm finding are all 0.87-ish g for the Model S. Performance cars are all 0.95g or so on the skidpad, including the "luxury sedan" Cadillac CTS-V (Car and Driver reports a skidpad 0.98g) I can't help but think the 500lbs to 1000lbs difference between the CTS-V and Model S is tilting the odds in favor of the lighter car when it comes to handling.
    - forgetsusername 11y ago
      Both ST models come with performance summer tires, so I think that's unlikely.
    - rconti 11y ago
      I wonder if transient response would be better with the low COG, although of course I'd expect it to be penalized even more heavily by the added mass. I've not driven a recent CTS-V although I've spent a bit of time behind the wheel of a 660+HP ~2011 CTS-V wagon. My experiences with the Model S are back to back with E92 M3s with the dual-clutch transmission, and of course you feel the added mass, but in terms of performance, I find the sheer size to be the biggest obstacle on a narrow course.
      - 11y ago
Mekkanox 11y ago
Note: I can only speak to the DC/MD/VA region but HOV lane privileges for hybrids and all-electrics aren't being granted anymore. The HOV lane on I-66 in VA was always clogged because so many folks bought Priuses that it defeated the purpose. Agreed with all the other pros.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  "it defeated the purpose." Unless said purpose was reducing pollution emissions.
  - rconti 11y ago
    Or spurring hybrid/electric development. We have money down on a Model 3; my wife has the longer commute. If carpool lane privileges are set to expire (SF Bay Area) before it comes out, and something else (like the Bolt) looks compelling at the time, we may jump to that.

dragontamer 11y ago

> It had to have 5 stars in the 3 major categories. Every vehicle I care about seems to have 5 stars in all categories. Safety of modern vehicles is exceptionally better than even just 10 years ago. You can achieve 5-stars in the original three categories with a $15k Honda Fit (Moderate front, side, and roof) http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/honda/fit-4-door-wagon/2015 http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehicle/v/honda/fit-4-door-... > highest performance car ever mass produced Take a look at Leguna Seca lap times. Model S isn't doing as well as "high performance" cars. EDIT: Focus on the 1:48 laptime, the best one. It looks like it was a casual race for the most part. The 1:48 time however is a record not only for Tesla Model S, but for electric vehicles in general and should be taken as the "serious" indicator of the Model S's overall performance. https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-laguna-seca-lap-times https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/model-s-laguna-s... 5-stars in every safety category with performance and cheap is like... Subaru WRX. Fords are a bit easier to maintain though, so I'd go with Ford Focus ST or Focus RS (and switch out the tires, because stock tires on that suck apparently)

LeonM 11y ago
> Take a look at Leguna Seca lap times. Model S isn't doing very well. It all depends on how you like to 'measure' performance. The model S dominates when it comes to acceleration, pedal response and road (!= track) handling due to the low center of gravity. However, the S does very poor on a circuit because the motor/inverter tends to get hot and the software will reduce the maximum output power accordingly. You have to keep in minds that the model S is a 4 door, 2 trunk luxury sedan, not a race car.
- dragontamer 11y ago
  > The model S dominates when it comes to acceleration There are multiple Model S here. The P85D which "dominates" acceleration has a curb weight of 5000lbs and likely handles like a boat. (The typical F150 truck actually weighs less than the Model S P85D). The older, more typical Model S, have Zero-to-Sixty scores in the 5-seconds to 6-seconds range, which is easily bested by the Subaru WRX STI. The Model S probably wins on rolling-start 5-to-sixty, as the ICE engines won't be able to rev-high and drop the clutch. Only Model S P85D "dominates" in acceleration, and that car comes with its own compromises. > road (!= track) handling due to the low center of gravity Model S measures .87g for road holding according to Car and Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s http://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-s), while the other cars I was talking about are all easily above .9+g. I'm unsure which model it is, I can only assume that's a more typical Model S as opposed to the heavier-than-a-Toyota-Sienna swagger-wagon P85D. Electric vehicles are heavy, and that negatively plays into its performance characteristics. > You have to keep in minds that the model S is a 4 door, 2 trunk luxury sedan, not a race car. Indeed. But if you want to step into the arena of "high performance", what better comparison is there than a standardized track? As for the apples-to-apples comparison, try 1:40 for the Cadillac CTS-V Sedan on the Leguna Seca, while 1:48 seems to be the best time for the Model S. Luxury sports sedan vs Luxury sports sedan, both are $85,000+ large cars claiming awesome performance after all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TcCuzaRFIw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TcCuzaRFIw
11thEarlOfMar 11y ago
We wound up with a Subaru Legacy. The performance that matters to me personally is getting off the dime and passing on the highway. Too many tentative drivers in California these days... I don't drive on race tracks, though I am sure that would be a blast.
arprocter 11y ago
Those lap times are all over the place - a Fiat 500E is in the mix with the Model S? Makes me suspect these aren't professional drivers
- dragontamer 11y ago
  The 1:48 Lap time was a record for electric vehicles and the Model S in general. Focus on that time, and notice how much faster actual "performance" cars are than that. FastestLaps.com has the P85D (aka: Ludicrous mode) explicitly in its Autozeitung test track database in case you want another data-point. http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/autozeitung-test-track
  - arprocter 11y ago
    If what others are saying about overheating is correct it's surprising it happens so soon, as Laguna is only a couple of miles. Then again, the car is probably configured more to cruise at a constant speed instead of hammering around a circuit with lots of violent speed changes
rconti 11y ago
Yeah, but the WRX is a huge penalty box compared to the Model S. In real-world performance, the S is going to outrun the WRX. You cite a 5000lb curb weight and it 'probably' handles like a boat; I've driven 4500lb P85s that handle exceedingly well. Again, will a WRX beat it around an autocross course? Maybe. But instant torque and no gearchanges will win out in the real world. I don't know why you think the RS has crappy tires; it comes with PSS stock, which is what I put on my Golf R. But then again, the RS isn't even out yet.
- dragontamer 11y ago
  Rumor is that Ford is giving the RS all-season tires as stock, but I'm having difficulty finding that story. I seem to see a winter-tire option, so maybe the rumor I read is wrong. > I've driven 4500lb P85s that handle exceedingly well Numbers just don't match your claim. I realize the low-center of gravity can give you confidence on a corner, but the best skidpad numbers I'm finding are all 0.87-ish g for the Model S. Performance cars are all 0.95g or so on the skidpad, including the "luxury sedan" Cadillac CTS-V (Car and Driver reports a skidpad 0.98g) I can't help but think the 500lbs to 1000lbs difference between the CTS-V and Model S is tilting the odds in favor of the lighter car when it comes to handling.
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    Both ST models come with performance summer tires, so I think that's unlikely.
  - rconti 11y ago
    I wonder if transient response would be better with the low COG, although of course I'd expect it to be penalized even more heavily by the added mass. I've not driven a recent CTS-V although I've spent a bit of time behind the wheel of a 660+HP ~2011 CTS-V wagon. My experiences with the Model S are back to back with E92 M3s with the dual-clutch transmission, and of course you feel the added mass, but in terms of performance, I find the sheer size to be the biggest obstacle on a narrow course.
    - 11y ago

Mekkanox 11y ago

Note: I can only speak to the DC/MD/VA region but HOV lane privileges for hybrids and all-electrics aren't being granted anymore. The HOV lane on I-66 in VA was always clogged because so many folks bought Priuses that it defeated the purpose. Agreed with all the other pros.

ghshephard 11y ago
"it defeated the purpose." Unless said purpose was reducing pollution emissions.
- rconti 11y ago
  Or spurring hybrid/electric development. We have money down on a Model 3; my wife has the longer commute. If carpool lane privileges are set to expire (SF Bay Area) before it comes out, and something else (like the Bolt) looks compelling at the time, we may jump to that.